Our puppies are guaranteed against health defects. 10 days general Health, 30 days genetic, 2 years for eyes, and 26 months for hips. With all the potential health problems I hear about with labs, should I look for a better health guarantee than this?
I sell Lab pups. In some states there are laws regarding the sale of animals...No contract is valid when it is contradicted by a law. Most of my friends nowadays give NO guarantee. The old fashioned guarantee was 2 yrs. on hips and was a puppy as a replacement guarantee. Despite what vets generally diagnose...75% of dysplasia is caused by diet and enviornment. Labs are web footed aquatic retrievers. Yet people still insist on jogging w/ them, putting them up and down stairs, and high impact games like frisbee. While I have some field type Labs whose skeletons could withstand this, most Labs cannot, at least at a young age. Inadequate calcium absorbtion will also give faulty bone structure. The OFA does not certify dogs until they are 2 yrs. because they grow until they are 3...A 1 yr old with good hips may well be dysplastic at 2. If the breeder seems honest, you are lucky to get any guarantee, and I would not fantasize about money back unless guaranteed by law. The 2 week guarantee is viral, if the dog has Parvo within 2wks. of purchase it may have come from the breeder w/it. Outside of the incubation period, when people are stupid enough to take young dogs to parks, sidewalks and petstores,and vet offices, it is your fault they got sick and the breeder owes you no money for your stupidity.
From breeder- "I'm getting anew dog that if her hip and eye clearances come through, will be breeding, that will be ready about the May time frame. That would be a black and chocolate litter, but will be getting her DNA's for coat color to make sure she carries chocolate. If she doesn't, then we will have an all chocolate litter ready about July. The 900.00 price is chocolates I have right now, that are between 2 Master Hunters. Normally our chocoaltes are 800.00, so are the yellows, and then our blacks are 750.00. We have only had one confirmed case of hip displasia in 7 years of breeding. And we have had hundreds of puppies. We do all the hip clearances through OFA to make sure they do not have it before breeding. So we feel have have done great only producing one. " I'm trying to keep all these titles straight-is a master hunter the same as an AKC field champion? Is a pup from a master hunter worth $100-$150 more than the others?
labs are webfooted aquatic retrievers, but there's a lot more to hunting with a lab than just sending them in the water after a dead duck. There's generally a lot of running around, walking, etc just to get to the hunting spot. I am sorry but I don't believe that 75% of dysplasia is diet and exercise. If it is, what amount of diet and exercise is exactly right to achieve the balance so your dog doesn't get dysplasia? Does that mean that only 25% of it is genetic? Is going up and down stairs in the home and playing around with your dog not normal wear and tear on a dog's hips? I'd think after so many years of living side by side with humans, it's completely expected for a dog to be able to survive going up and down stairs a few times a day without showing signs of dysplasia. I do believe that some people do too much with their dogs when they are too young, and that indeed can cause future structural damage. But what about those who wait until their dogs are 18 months or older, when 90% of the dog's growth is complete anyway and the growth plates are already set? Vets aren't the ones who certify a dogs hips, it's OFA and Pennhip. The vet merely takes the xrays and gives a suspected outcome. Maybe the guarantees depend on the breed. My newfoundland comes with a lifetime guarantee against genetic defects, i can either get my money back or I can get another puppy within 2 years.
Depends on who is buying your pups. 90% of mine go to pet homes that actually don't even care about the pedigree at all. A MH is a NAHRA title as far as I know, from a hunt test. When you have a hunt test, many dogs can qualify. In an AKC field trial there is only one winning dog. FC would then be the harder title to obtain, but not necessarily the better dog, or hunter. I have dogs w/ a field Champion background that I don't breed because I don't know where I could sell their pups outside of trial folk...who are clannish and may not buy outside their lines anyway. Beautiful graceful Labs like a deer or a cat in their movement, but no off switch. Make lousy throwrugs/lapdogs...OFA,CERF eye, hip, and elbow 3 yrs. old, and I guess they are just pets, for now. My friends have those English type dogs and I won't breed them to that (Kitty's mom sighs in frustration). If you are in Calif. I can tell you more about law, but I know nada about other states.
THere is a difference between a Field Trial Champion and a Master Hunter. In order to be a Master Hunter, the dog just has to have a certain number of qualifying scores. In order for the dog to be a Field Trial Champion or a Grand Field Champion, the dog has to have won some hunting events. Also, the FTC and GFC go at the beginning of a dog's name. The MH goes at the end of a dog's name. MH to me means the dog does what it was bred to do in the field consistently. So it's conceviable that the dog's official akc name with titles and all could be.. GFC Minniyar's Dogbert MH Here's a link dog titles of all types given by the AKC. http://www.akc.org/dic/events/prefixs.cfm There's a link to what the suffixes are at the top of the page. In general, the ones that go at the end of the name are less intensive. The dog has achieved a minimum qualifying score or at least made it to the finish line. The minimum score is the baseline. In order to have the title at the beginning of the name, the prefix, your dog not only has to have performed the event, it has to beat out other dogs in scoring.
KittysMom-if we got a lab, my husband probably wouldn't even hunt with it. He's not into the waterfowl thing. (If we got a pointer, he would hunt with it.) So based on that, our main concern would be the health of the dog. So probably, being a master hunter wouldn't really matter? I don't want a really high-strung dog, though. Any ideas on what I should look for?
18 mos. is fine to begin higher impact training...with proper conditioning. My opinion is based on the research of many different people/ organisations and the warning against jogging/ stairclimbing is from communicating for 30 yrs. w/ dog buyers/sellers and concluding that these activities in the same sentence as puppy is guaranteed dysplasia. My vet is OFA president Raymond Weitkamp. He believed that the animal must be predisposed to dysplasia to get it from those activities. My research and personal experience indicates otherwise. When they isolate the gene for dysplasia it will be fact, until then it is conjecture. I have seen the immediate effect calcium absorbtion/depletion has on pups and cannot be adament enough about how important diet is...no one generally listens, so I'm not sure it matters, and will stick to the law and contracts instead of worrying how a pup buyer is going to care for their pet.
Thanks, Minniyar. I feel like I'm in school again, learning all these new things! And my husband thinks I'm going off the deep end. I bought 3 more books and a magazine this weekend-maybe I should be reading them instead of doing this, lol!
Minniyar are you confusing GMHR w/ FC? I have never heard of GFC... Catlover: Best to see the parents. If they are well trained you may not notice how highstrung they are. It may be a long time before you get your dog trained that well, if ever. Wait till Hoosgow weighs in on the pointer subject or look back for posts about a week ago. Those folk were just smoking up the keyboard w/ info on pointers and what was what. I think from what she said the standards for pointer training are much higher than retrieving. She kinda sneered at JH titles and I have always thought those were an accomplishment w/ the average hunting dog/ family pet.
Good girl Catlover. Research. A confident buyer that knows what she wants is a big point in your favor. You are less likely to be cheated. And, I for one welcome people like you and do my best to blow off lookieloos (puppy,puppy,puppy,thankyoubye)
here's my opinion. 10 days for general health is good. gives you plenty of time to make a vet appointment and have the puppy checked out. 30 days for genetic health is the pits because the majority of genetic problems will not show up until the pup is grown up. 2 1/2 years is good on the hip dysplasia, because you cannot confirm hip dysplasia until the dog is fully grown, no ofa cert. until they are 2. and as far as i have always been schooled, hip dysplasia is a genetic condition, not one brought on by improper exercise or diet. if there wasn't some basis for a genetic predisposition i would see no reason for having parents of pups cleared by ofa. i would stay away from a breeder who has bred and sold hundreds of puppies. sounds more like a business unless these breeders are in their 70's. it is always good to select a breeder who is actively involved in some sport with their select breed whether it be conformation showing, or hunt tests, obedience , etc. shows they have more invested in their animals then just what the animal can produce for them.
i didn't mean to "sneer" at a jh title, it is really just meaningless though in the pointer world. i do not know what is involved in retriever hunt tests or trials. in the pointer world a puppy win in a trial or a jh does not take much in the way of training and does little to show natural ability. the other issue that i have with that level of compitition is that the dog is in an uncontrolled situation in which it is very easy for the dog to actually catch a bird. this is a bad thing in training pointing breeds and can set your training back a lot.
as far as hip dysplasia, both schools are correct. it is and can be genetic but diet and exercise also play a large part of that. that is one of the reasons that i am an advocate of working dogs as opposed to show dogs. it the grand parents of a pup are 6,7, or 8 years old and still great in the field, and the parents are 3 or 4 and great in the field then the chances of poor hips are pretty small. most show dogs do not spend a lot of time running, swimming or working in any capacity so if they have weak hips (and ofa does NOT always show it) then the hips and other joints are not put to any sort of test. if any real working dog has any sort of a joint problem, it can easily be seen in the field and the dog will quickly work itself out of contention and out of the breeding stock.
Scout-that was the 1st thing I noticed when I saw how many litters of puppies they are expecting. It's the website Hector gave me, where they got Nala. The website is very nice, and I sent them an email-they got to me quickly. But so many dogs!!!! Anyone want to take a look and see what you think? www.labpuppies.com
hector listed that website before she bought nala for our opinions. it is a business as far as i can tell. i don't know of any breeders that accept credit cards. and as far as i gathered, the breeders didn't do the trials or hunt tests themselves, they sent them out to other trainers to get titled. so i would conclude they may have done that just to promote their business more than actually caring. but i may have read their site wrong. nala seems to be very healthy so i am sure they aren't terrible breeders.
catlover, for my lab, not being a hunting person i looked for OFA good to excellent in parents' hips and granparents, CERF yearly and cleared (parents), i went for the english type which are stockier and as a whole mellower than the field type, i met the parents and interviewed and visited the breeder, didn't go with someone who charged different prices for different colors, didn't get one from really hyper parents, puppies raised in the home (again i'm not a hunting or field trial or showing person.)