Protodog: Purebred is a misused term, like "natural" in foods. All dogs can be considered purebred according to whatever is in them. It, like AKC registration, is the tip of the iceberge as far as breeding good dogs goes.
Long dogs: thank-you for the link. I will send it to my "snobby friends" that we may further eradicate puppy millers. It was right on.
Ansy: you mentioned pitbulls, and that they were not AKC, I was responding to that...edited, or could care less, take your choice.
Basset Lover. That sucks. W/ my friends, we take the stud fee in advance (I guess for this exact reason) Court will provide you satisfaction, w/ the DNA evidence, or lack of it, I imagine. I'm sorry. A stud owner should be compensated.
I'm still confused, and I truly want to understand what the term means. Misused words drive me crazy. If the term is too complicated to explain in a thread, can you recommend a book (or website) so that I can look it up? I'm a geek; I love to do research. :)
It seems - with no specific definition for the word 'pure bred' and no specific book, website, etc. to refer you to - that Kitty herself don't even know the meaning of the word. I mean, IF she had read that somewhere - don't you think she would know where to refer you to?
I have both CKC and AKC dogs and all I know is that I paid more for my CKC dog than my AKC dog. Not sure why because they are all loveable and sweet. If you don't want a particular breed you can always go to the shelter or find a rescue. There are plenty of them out there.
Comparing the AKC and the CKC is like comparing a University and a Community College. One is bigger than the other but both serve a purpose and get you to where you need to be.
A registry cannot guarantee you that a dog is a pure breed anymore than a college can guarantee that you will have a 4.0. Just like with school - if you want a dog thats a 4.0 - you gotta work towards it.
If the whole focus here is to buy from a responsible breeder then WHAT ON EARTH does a registry have to do with that? All registries are full of both good and bad breeders. So doesn't it seem only logical to look past the actual registry and simply find a good breeder?
This is why I don't associate with either. My personal registry of choice ie never caught up in this debate.
There seems to be a HUGE falsehood that having an AKC dog guarantees you something. It doesn't. I can sit here and think of many ways to get around the AKC's regulations and screw up the gene pools - and I don't even own an AKC dog! As long as this flasehood continues to bestow upon people - the longer the puppy millers who are AKC will continue to sell 'perfect' dogs who really are - not so perfect.
People talk about the CKC being an outlet for puppy millers. What do you think it creates when people are conditioned to think that the AKC is the 'only way to go'? AKC puppy millers eat that up - and they sell us wonderfully bred, healthy dogs - at least thats what we think - all because they are AKC.
Get a grip people. A registry has NOTHING to do with whether or not a dog is a pure bred. A registry guarantees NOTHING and it promises NOTHING. EVERY REGISTRATION FORM I HAVE EVER SEEN CLEARLY STATES THAT THE REGISTRY WILL NOT GET INVOLVED IN ANY LEGAL ISSUES REGARDING THE DOG. Again, they promise NOTHING.
A registration paper from ANY registry can only do 1 thing on a 100% level:
It can tell you that you can participate in their shows.
I CANNOT guarantee breed, lineage, temperament or even birth date. So what if the SIRE has been DNA tested - what does that say about the DAM? Anybody could breed a Champion SIRE to an ill-bred DAM and then register them, say they have DNA testing, and a Ch. bloodline. It all sounds good but it's only half true - what about the DAM's background?
What if the breeder has 2 DAM's of breeding age. One is AKC and the other is XYZ. This breeder also has a DNA tested AKC SIRE. The SIRE 'accidentally' breeds the XYZ DAM and the breeder 'doesn't want to lose moeny. When the pups are born he registers them as a litter from the AKC DAM so the pups can be fully registered. Now if anyone questions it - he can 'prove' the litter because he has the almighty DNA which proves the SIRE of the litter. Yay! Now everyone is assured that the puppies are born from AKC parents and buys them up - only to go and breed themselves and carry on this tradition that 'our dogs are AKC - they are the best!'. All the while - the pedigree of the original DAM is uncertain.
Now can you see just HOW much of a role a registry plays in the 'pureness' of a dog - diddly-squat!
If you choose to continue on the AKC falsehood that an AKC dog is somehow bred to better standards - live on! I on the other hand - would seek out a qualified breeder and could care less what registry they used.
***Edited By: Ansy1 on 12/2/2004 9:46:45 AM*** Reason: kbghhjb
Ansy, you are right in the regard that even the AKC makes no claims that AKC registered being a testament of quality. All registries require a certain amount of honesty on the part of the breeder, especially those registries that don't require dna testing of any type.
However, there is no other registry that does more to educate or has more events for people to do with their purebred dogs than the AKC. The AKC lobbies against Breed Specific Legislation in every single state and locality that it occurs in, despite the fact that often dogs that aren't even AKC registerable like Cane Corsos and American Pit Bull Terriers that are specifically refered to in the BSL. At least some of the money spent on registering dogs in the AKC is going to do good works, instead of just lining someone's pockets the way the 'junk' registries do.
I have never said that the AKC is all good, and lord knows all breeders in the AKC aren't good. Which is why it is soooo important to research your breeder carefully. However, it is the best registry out there because it does provide so many outlets of people who are really interested in both their dog breeds and want to do things with their dogs. And they are vehemently against people buying pets from pet stores. Does any other registry (other than the UKC) make that claim?
To me, any type of participation in these events is a sign that people are interested in the betterment of their dog breed, whatever it is.
Ansy, obviously you don't live in California. Here it is illegal to sell a dog w/o a disclosure that is both read to and signed by the puppy/dog buyer (who retains a copy) which states that AKC/Other registration has NOTHING to do w/ the quality of the dog, and that linage and purebredness are not guaranteed by the dog being registered. Trust me, I do not even let a person come to the house that has this kind of misinterpretation of what AKC means...but then, I am unlikely to sell dogs to people that are that ignorant to begin with. Not that they aren't out there. I just leave the more ignorant buyers for someone else. AKC is the bare minimum requirement my buyers are looking for.
Hear, hear, Minn and Kitty. Nobody in this thread has EVER made a claim that an AKC registration makes a dog more valuble or better than one who isn't.
But when one is shopping for a breeder- with SO many bad ones out there (in every registry)... first choosing to weed out breeders who use a worthless registry is the rationale thing to do. THEN start to do the real investigation on a breeder by breeder basis.
Anyone who registers their dogs with the ContKC is ignorant and misguided at best, greedy and dishonest at the other end. WHY on EARTH would someone BOTHER looking any further at a ContKC breeder? A responsible breeder chooses the registry that is the most accurate, allows them to compete and interact with other enthusiasts of their breed, and participate in local and regional breed clubs. A responsible breeder is an intelligent person- they won't send money to a FOR PROFIT group who does provides NO service, and does NOTHING to assist the betterment of their breed!
It's pretty cut and dry- I honestly don't understand why some people have such a tough time wrapping their minds around it...
~~And they are vehemently against people buying pets from pet stores. Does any other registry (other than the UKC) make that claim~~
Although I do agree that the AKC does more for its members (and it has more funds to do so), I also have to note that the SCBCA states that:
If any dog carrying SCBCA registration is found being sold in a pet shop - the breeders registration privelages WILL be revoked (no questions asked). In fact, any current breeder who is ever proven to have sold dogs to a pet store in the past will also be revoked. When you interview with them - they specifically ask about your affiliations with any pet stores, past or present.
I will further go on to say that I have NEVER seen a dog with their registration in a pet store - yet I have seen literally hundreds of AKC dogs being sold there. I even bought one myself many years ago.
So, it really doesn't matter how much you are against people buying from pet stores if you are going to let them sell your dogs. Yes, they offer lots of great things to their members, however, the pet shop selling is one I think they fail in.
Kitty - I actually live in Tennessee. It would probably be beneficial for more states to require a contract like that.
~Anyone who registers their dogs with the ContKC is ignorant and misguided at best, greedy and dishonest at the other end. WHY on EARTH would someone BOTHER looking any further at a ContKC breeder?~
How in the hell can you say that I am misguided and ignorant and greedy and dishonest? You do not even know me. I did my research on the registries. I have seen all the crap my AKC friends have gone through when the AKC wouldn't help them when it came down to it. I am a good breeder. I have my dogs tested for everything. NEVER have I bred a dog that had a defect of ANY kind. My dogs are my pets first. They are loved and are part of my family. I sell my pups as pets. They are required to be spayed and nuetered before the age of 6 months, most of the time however, I try to have it done before they leave my home. The pups are vaccinated with age appropriate vaccines. They are kept in the house with us. I only breed 1 litter per year, there has been one year where I had two but that was my first year in breeding and I did not catch the heat cycle in time. NEVER has that happened again. You are a very rude and obnoxious person who is very judgemental and you obviousely know nothing about breeding except the rescue end of it. I work both ends, I breed RESPONSIBLY and I also do rescue. I am signed up with my shelter as well as the other two shelters for small breed rescue as well as Chow rescue. Of course, I also take in cats and pretty much any other dog that needs help. I never once said that AKC was better or ContKC was better, not once. I am just so very sick of everyone saying "do not buy through a breeder that registers through the ContKC"! Ansy said it best and instead of being a b!tch, maybe you should try to educate yourself and others and tell about how to find a good breeder, regardless of registery. The OP on here was looking for a pet, so what difference would it make what registry it was? As long as he was getting a healthy pup from a good breeder?
I had a Rotty that was a registered dog. For the 11 1/2 years that I had him, it never mattered that I had those papers because I didn't show him and I didn't breed him. If I had wanted to breed him, I could have done it and sold puppies even if he wasn't registered. We have to remember that any organization will have holes where dishonest people can scam their way in. When it all comes down to it, ALL of our doggies are wonderful, no matter where they came from. Now that my Rotty is gone, his papers are just a souvenir of the little boy rotty that I loved so much.
Ok, this is to both LongDogs and KatzPoms First off, no matter what registry you use, there are both bad and good breeders among all registry. Ones that use worthy bitches that are true to their breed standard in all areas and use respecable and "proven" studs to produce the best they can. Better than thegeneration before and to better then breed. There are also ones that just ahve 2 dogs of the same breed that are of oppisite sex and let them mate everytime the bitch is in season. Only producing pets. As for my point of view, I perfer some registries over others. I use AKC and CKC. I have gotten goldens for BC and ON in Canada that were CKC and registered them in AKC. I also have AKC dogs that I have registered in CKC so I can finish them there too. I am a Junior Handler also. I work for a Professional Handler. I have asked about her point of views on other registries such as ContKC and the UKC. She believes if a breeders is only using those regisries alone, and are not show their dogs in AKC they are not showing the dogs to their potential. What I mean is, she thinks that people that use those registries alone(not in combination) do not have dogs that can compete with ALC dogs. As we all know. Loook at a UKS show and compare it to a AKC show. The qaulity is different. I have had AKC and UKC Ch goldens and to my surprise a bitch that was straight in the shoulder was so sucessful in UKC but barely finished in AKC. I just believe that AKC has higher standards for comformation. I also believe that breeders should not put comformation above temperament and health. Though a dog that isnt true to its breed should NOT be bred. I dont think versatility should be put infront of comformation. I know people in field that say having a arched over the loin in a golden "makes them better in the field" but really that is a excuse for their dogs. A dog should fit the breed standard first. It will perform beter physically if it is to its breed standard. Thats why is was developed. A golden with a moderate amount of coat over a excessive amount of coat in the field will perfrm better because bushes and bryers wont get caught in them. Now, my handler shows rotties. I have seen the breed change in them. They should gait like a woprking dog. Head held lower instead of straight up carriaged like a sight hound. Also, AKC are not snobs. We all have our own opinions and you should judge us all for what one person says. Plus, many of us are not only AKC people but also UKC and CKC. I show my dogs in all areas. I ahve dogs in obedience at CDX and UDX level, field dogs at WCX and SH level, agility dogs at OA and OAJ level, and show dogs that are major pointed and finished and specialing. I have some UKC and some CKC Ch along with AKC. I belive that a "real" dog that is true to its breed SHOULD have titles at both the front and end of its name! Mine have proven themselves. I would also just like to take a moment to introduce myself. This is my first tiem in this forum. My name is Amanda. I am 15, and Open Senior in Juniors. I work for a professional handler and travel the country with her on weekends. I am also a sophmore in High School. I own 5 dogs. 4 goldens and 1 brittany. 2 are finshed, 2 pointed, and 1 who is more of a perfromance dog. All compete and have many titles. Our kennel name is Hometime Goldens. My father and I live in central Ma and own a small hobby kennel. We breed for versatility in goldens. Our goldens are capible of performing in all areas of competition. As for myself, when I am older I plan to become a professional hanbdler and breeder of dual purpose brittanys. I have my firstnow who is 5, finished, and my newest Jrs dog. I am in love with the breed. I also plan to always be with a golden. It is my "heart" breed and I can see a day with out one. So, this post is getting long. I have given you all my opinions. Thanks and Best Regards Amanda~** Hometime Goldens