im not sure ,but when I was looking at puppies at puppyfiners, I had seen a ad for a six month old yorkie and the breeder said she had kept her for breeding purpose, but had turned out to be not good breeding quality.
That is a really good question! I think it varies depending on the breeder. For example, in my never-ending (lol) research on puppies/breeders...I have found that one breeder, for example, sells "show quality" pups for $1600, and sells "pet quality" pups (from the same litter) for $1200, Another breeder says that she sells all pups, male or female, show or pet, for the same price. Her reasoning is that she breeds all her dogs to be the best, healthiest dogs that she can breed. But I wonder, when I do end up getting a pup-if there are only 1 or 2 left-why were they not chosen? Different people have told me that it doesn't mean there is something wrong or inferior with the pup. Maybe someone wanted a male, and only females were left, or wanted a yellow and only black were left, etc. But how you can tell quality at that young age, I have no idea. Maybe Kittysmom, or one of the other breeders, will share their knowledge!
We're soon to get a one-year-old Basenji, who, his breeder says, doesn't meet her qualifications for a show dog, so she doesn't want to breed him. I dunno...he looks (to me, at least, novice that I am) just like the other males she owns. We're happy and grateful to get him, tho!!
i'm not a breeder, catlover, but i know if people have a choice in puppy different things will appeal to different people, maybe just the way the puppy's face looks or because it went up to the people, or the color, or little things...doesn't at all mean something is wrong with the ones left. there are some breeders who pick the puppy for the buyer, too, the buyers don't choose.
When I was looking for chihuahuas before I bought mine, I would run into a lot of breeders that would hold the puppies for several months. Usually up to 4 months before selling them if they thought they could be 'show quality'. I have heard the same thing about dogs that are used for working. A lot of times with bloodhounds, they do tests on them when they are really young and they can tell if they have an instinct for mantrailing or not. If they don't, they are sold to pet homes. My step dad is an avid hunter and he can see it in very young puppies whether they have that 'treeing' instinct or not. How they sniff, and where they sniff. Maybe it's the same for show dogs. They see how they stand and whatnot and can tell if it is something they may be good at. This would be an excellent question for Ltlgto I think. :)
well, my aunt gets more experanced breeders/ show, thay are her friends as they now all the lengths on the legs, just when they are puppies about 7 weeks or before then. my aunt nows same, but does not really now the lengths of the hing quarters, nor do i. but i am good with same, my aunt also keeps the best coloured german shepherds with the black mask, she always keeps the best out of the litter if it is show quality. Keira is my uncles dog, she is the sab;e and she has great shape and heing quarters ect its just her colour and her being wary of strangers that lets her down in the show ring, she will not bit anybody but sometimes she shys away form the gudge. here is Keira http://www.dogster.com/?84126 Lutzy has good shape and ok colour, but she is to short and not tall enough here she is http://www.dogster.com/?84120
with males it is all the same but it is best to get a male with a big heat, feet, legs
Good question Ansy1, I don't have a clue! Well, maybe a little one. I'll use T. Poodles for this. Some people who have been grading a certain breed for structure for a long time can actually do it at birth and be very accurate. You pick the puppy up by the tail and neck and let it hang. You can see the squareness, and front and rear angles quite well. It's called wet hanging. We can't do that yet, but we are learning. Our groomer is very good at it. After wet hanging, you should look at your puppy at exactly 8 weeks old. Their structure at that time is what you will get. With our breed, you look for the angles of the rear, tail set, front, squareness, shape of head, ear and tail set, ear leather, eye set, stop, thickness of bone, coat, muzzle, movement and attitude. The last two are very important. As I've heard it said, a dog doesn't walk on it's head. The biggest problem with our breed is size. Depending on the sire and dam and generations behind them, puppies can grow at a different rate. Some T. Poodles will be finished growing by 6-7 months, while others will continue to grow up to a year. We have an expected growth chart to go by, but it is not exact because they do grow at different rate. One important thing to remember also. Just because two dogs are a champion, doesn't mean they will throw show quality pups and conversely, just because two dog are not champions doesn't mean they can't throw show quaity pups. Don't ever let anybody tell you that all they breed are show quality. That's impossible. Hope this answered some of your questions. I'll work on some of the other ones next.
I'm not too good at some of the finer points of conformation judging. I don't keep a dog for breeding unless it has good dentition, good temperament, good pigmentation, conformation to my eye that is correct-with an eye to working ability-not show ring angles. From what friends have said, often a promising show pup is kept and then it "falls apart" looks wise, later, when it grows. Also, I don't know until the dog is 2 yrs. old if I can breed it, even if all these other things are good, it must pass OFA on hips and elbows, CERF on eyes, and often heart, thyroid and patellas are part of the analysis. ANY flaw, and the dog is sold as a pet w/o papers. ALL pups are sold on a limited registration, anyway. They will not get the full unless they pass OFA at 2 yrs. I have kept pups for substandard disposition, until I have trained them myself and instilled permanent confidence in them. I usually lose quite a bit of money doing this, but the dog gets a better home.
One of the biggest reasons a show quality dog sells higher than a pet quality dog is because of breeding rights. When you sell on an open registration, you give the buyer the right to breed. Good or bad, your name (kennel) is on the line. Hopefully, dogs sold on an open registration are excellent representatives of the breed that should be used for breeding stock. Those that are not, should not be bred, thus limited registration (no breeding rights). That is why it is also very important to have a contract stating the requirements for testing before breeding, or the requirement for spay/neuter.
Unfortunately, you could sell a dog under limited registration and have a contract that the dog must be spay/neutered, but a buyer could ultimately breed the dog and sell puppies without papers.
As a breeder, we put the same amount of time, money, love, testing etc. into all of our puppies. Why some are chosen over others is up to the buyers. Certain colors sell better than others. Most people prefer females over males and they generally go quicker. There's lots of different reasons why one may be left longer than another. We have sold toys as old as 7 months, waiting to see if would stay in size.
***Edited By: ltlgto on 12/9/2004 12:30:04 PM*** Reason: mispelling
I don't know how a novice (like me) can possibly pick out "the best puppy". I can study the breed standards until I have them memorized, but how is knowing that the breed standard is between 25-30" and from 65-80lbs going to help with a puppy? All I can do is go by looks and personality. But even with personality, you can't really tell with just 1 or 2 visits. I guess that's why some breeders choose the pup for the buyer. And even with different breeds-when it comes to Brittanys, for example, some are orange and white, some are liver and white. But when it comes to vizslas-as far as I'm concerned-they're all identical!!! How can you possibly choose?
catlover, I think a lot of it depends on what you are looking for. If you were looking for a show quality puppy, it's imperative that you have somebody that knows the breed standards for that breed help you. That is also why it is very important to buy from a reputable show breeder. As a breeder, if you don't show a breed yourself, how will you know what show quality is? For pet quality, temperment is very important, and sometimes the breeder will be able to pick out the right pup for your situation/life style. Having a mentor that knows the particular breed you are interested in is very helpful.
I can tell you that when we bought Sammy he was 5 months old. We had seen him at about 10 weeks and didn't like his head at all. At five months, he was still at his breeders home and our groomer told us about him. The breeder had offered him to her for $500. He had offered him to us at 10 weeks for the same price. We went to see him, and immediately told him we wanted him. We could see his face had changed a lot since we had seen him last. No contract, no nothing, but with an open registration for $500. His sire and dam were purchased by this breeder already finished for over $5000 each. The breeder was not happy when a woman from Texas had flown up to sell him a female and wanted to buy Sammy at $1200 that same week. (He's still ticked about it) Sammy grew up cowering in the kitchen corner being beat up by 5 adult females. Socially, he was a mess. That's why it has been so satisfying to have him finish off his AKC Championship. From a cheap basketcase to a Champion in less than 18 months.
Nice story Itlgto. Good for him. $500. good price, too.
Catlover, depending on the breed, there are things you can see as pups. w/ Labs we look for width of chest, straightness and bone on legs, squareness and otter shape on tail, teeth, shape of skull, stop on nose, color/pigmentation, set and size of ear, temperament, topline, squareness of butt, width of muzzle, width of shoulders. I am inflenced (unfortunately) by intelligence and personality, too. Oh, and don't choose before 8 wks. And, once a barker, always a barker. And, they don't calm down, if they are busy...they stay that way. You want a throwrug, don't buy a spinning top. They don't change much.
Thanks kittysmom. What we're looking for is mainly temperment, so that's some good points. But I still wonder...if you see a litter together, you can tell aggressive vs shy, active vs laid back. But what if there is only 1 puppy? Doesn't that make it a lot harder to judge personality?
He wouldn't have PITA-P as his kennel name on him if the breeder hadn't already put it on the papers. His breeder had said that we had spoiled him and ruined him behind our back when he was having problems showing. Now that he's finished, he wants a picture of him to put on his website. Sorrrrrry. Don't have an extra. He also beat his half brother (same mother) his last two days, and finished his championship before him. Hah!
catlover, my experience with the 3 purebreds i've bought is that the breeders all observed the puppies and made notes on their temperaments throughout the puppy period so buyers would know and so they could try to make a good match between a buyer and puppy, and give buyers info on each puppy. the lab breeder did the temperament test on all the puppies.
Well, it would do you some good to look at litters, even if it is only in pet stores. You will begin to see the body language. Shy pups are OK if you don't have kids. Kids chase them around, and when the dog gets size, it fear bites. Eye contact is good. It is also said that the pack order pups establish w/ each other after 7 wks. marks their personality for life. It was recommended that pups be picked out of the litter at 7 wks. so that this does not happen to them.(?) When you spend some time just observing litters playing, you can pick out the leaders, followers, and slow learners, and barkers. Sounds like a fun assignment for you...Puppy observation. Trust me, you will be so much more confident of what you are looking at when it is not your 1st time. I have pup buyers look at them w/ me and I point out the things I see, as I see them. They often tell me things about my own pups I have not yet noticed. It is good to know which pups are what personality wise, so you get them to the right owners. I usually do pretty well. The "personality" pup in a litter, may not have an off switch, and a slightly more laid back pup may have more to it when given time to "warm up".
When I choose Aisha there was 9 in the litter. I was there first customer and I paid half for her right then and there. First, I looked at temperment. I did not want the most aggressive of course but I did not want the most docile either. Then I went to colour. I wanted a black and tan shepherd so I went with the one who had the most threads of tan coming in around the shoulder part as they were mostly black back them And then i went for the paw size, and the weight at birth. Aisha was the biggest female, the one that seemed to follow people around the most and her colors were just right. Of course I did not intend to breed her, but hey! Looks are everything lol.