i am having a few problems with my 6mth dobe bitch . she regularly attends puppy training classes and is coming on well,she is also crate trained and in general is the most loving puppy,The only problem i have is that she seems to be showing bullying and lack of repect to my 5 year old daughter.if my daughter walks past her she will stretch out her neck and open her mouth as if to nip but she doesnt snap or bite just shows this action time and time again , a couple of times she has caught her hand but luckily hasnt actually bite her as such.. she often barges my child around too.i have spoke to my trainer who feels its not agression more shepherding -but of course i am concerned and want to stop any problems before they get out of hand. At first i would squirt her with water any time she showed signs of not being nice to my child but then i didnt want the puppy to associate my child with some thing negative?! i have now started really involving the child with fun walks and games with dobe to see if this helps. has any one come across this type of behaviour? any info would be great

Hi, I have a springer spaniel now and she is 11 months old, believe me i have the same problem, but the best thing to do as i was told by a trainer is to either keep her on a short leash and when you see her do that correct her right away by yanking her and saying NO. When you see her obeying and sitting down, then you would say good girl. Doing that repeatedly would probable sink in eventually. Or else i was told that the kid itself would have to correct her and when the kid sees that the dog would open her mouth tell the dog NO and give her a bone instead in her mouth. My dog still does it today but alot less, i guess its just because they are puppies and they take more advantage because they are kids. Be strict and correct her. It worked for me, like i said my dog still does it once in a while, but she got alot better. Hope this could be of help.

you re right , it is hard for puppies and dogs to obey adn respect children, because of their high voices, their squeals sound like littermates, and also thay are so small. the best thing to do is, i agree, keep her on a leash so oyu can correct her,, teach your child(ren) how to assert themselves, and NEVER leave them alone with the dog. never ever ever!!!

I agree with the other advice. Another thing to do is involve you daughter in the training (supervised of course). Have your daughter feed your dog. If your dog knows how to sit, have your daughter make the dog sits before she receives her meal. Make sure your daughter is the one saying the command, not you. If she won't sit for your daughter, then tell your daughter not to give her the food until she does. The method is called 'Nothing in life is free approach'. It teaches the dog that he/she must do something first before getting something. It's a good way to teach dogs that tend to have alpha personalities. Teach your dog not to enter a room until your daughter has first. You can use the 'wait' command to do this. Hold the dog back until your daughter goes in the room, and then tell the dog it is okay for them to. Anytime the dog tries to run into a room before your daughter, say 'HEY!' and stop her. This is also an alpha role approach because with dog packs, the alpha always enters the den first. If your daughter is entering first, it teaches your dog that your daughter is higher in the pack order. If you see your dog nipping at your daughter, grab the scruff of her neck and shake it and in a low growl voice say, 'no'. Don't pick up the dog by the scruff, and don't do it violently, just shake the scruff. This is also done by the alpha in a pack. If the alpha doesn't like how a pack member is treating another one, they will do this to 'put them in their place'. So if you do this, your dog will see that you are the alpha, and that it is not okay for them to behave this way to your 'offspring'. But don't ever strike at your dog. Dogs respond very negatively to that kind of punishment. When your dog behaves well with your daughter, praise like crazy. They respond much better to positive reinforcement :)

Involve her in the training and make sure the dog knows the pecking order. If you are realy worried about it then its never to early to call a behaviorist.

I have been bording training and breeding dobes for many years now and this behaviour is not uncommon. Let me be sure though I understand. What you are witnessing is NOT in any way percieved as a snap or attempted bite? Am I correct? Sounds to me like this dog has adopted your child as her child. I am serious and i would not be surprised if she becomes more and more protective of your child. Your dog does not understand that her 2 legged new found friend is as fragile as she is. This is my only concern. Mother dogs in general are quite rough with their pups and seem like your female is mothering your daughter so be careful of accidental injuries. Has your female come into her first heat yet? If not she should be soon and mothering instinct kicks in right about then. Definatly involve your daughter in this dogs training. Your dog must understand that your daughter is above her and not below her on the totempole so to speak. She must be taught that your daughter is an authority figure. Dogs being pack animals are view their "pecking order" as serious business. Your daughter is not in any immediate danger but her role in the dogs life and the dog in hers must be made clear directly to avoid problems in the future. My female is the exact same way. Good luck.

Yeah, sounds like shes just controling your child and taking care of "the puppy". I'd do some serious work about "soft" and such, dogs can learn that people are delicate.

My bitch likes baby creatures and she will try to take them and run off somewhere safe. So you have to work with them.

" If you see your dog nipping at your daughter, grab the scruff of her neck and shake it and in a low growl voice say, 'no'. Don't pick up the dog by the scruff, and don't do it violently, just shake the scruff. This is also done by the alpha in a pack. If the alpha doesn't like how a pack member is treating another one, they will do this to 'put them in their place'. So if you do this, your dog will see that you are the alpha, and that it is not okay for them to behave this way to your 'offspring'. But don't ever strike at your dog. Dogs respond very negatively to that kind of punishment. When your dog behaves well with your daughter, praise like crazy. They respond much better to positive reinforcement :)"

Well I guess I feel the need to put in my two cents. How can I put this delicatly? First I disagree. While their behaviour with their pack members is as such eventually they will challenge to gain a higher place. Lets face it this is not a pack your dog is in it is a family with a vulnerable child. They are domesticated pets and should be treated as such. I agree with establishing your dogs place but don't stear to close to your family being run like a pack. These behaviours are part of their nature but only a part. I raise my dogs just like I raise my children. And I have spanked my child so why would I not spank my dog? There is a difference between spanking and beating. I do not beat my dogs but they occasionally do get a spanking. A dog that is abused will react badly but a dog that is loved and simply being corrected will not react badly but rather understand that he or she is in "deep doo doo." Dobermans are a particularly intelegent breed and they are a breed that needs a job. A purpose. The best advice I can give you is give your dog a spacific job that she can concentrate on. Perhaps make it strict abedience and loyalty with respect to your daughter. Dobermans were bred with protection in mind so take that into consideration when you work with her with your daughter. She already has a sence or attachment to your daughter and your daughters safety shoud be the dogs number one priority. In doing this the dog should know that any harm that could possibly come to that child is totally unacceptable. This way she would rather lay down her life then to her herself harm that child. For example, when your child goes outside to play in the yard, take the dog to the door and tell your daughter to say "check it out." Take the dog on her leash the first few times and walk her around the edge of the yard.and after a while you will not need the leash. After a walk around the yard tell her porch or patio whichever you have and walk her back to a spot you want her to go to. This establishes her space, gives her a task to complete that is the same each time, allows her to protect your child and also obay her command. once she gets this down to a science theach her simarly in the home. teach her not to cross the threshold of the door your daughter is crossing before your daughter unless she tells her "check it out." She is at just the right age for training of this sort and will get bored if you do not give her a job to do.

I'm sorry, but I am confused why you disagree with my pack comment when you made the same type of comment:
Quote:(She must be taught that your daughter is an authority figure. Dogs being pack animals are view their "pecking order" as serious business).

Aren't you saying the same thing I said?

I do want to say though that I think a dog can be trained without physical punishment what-so-ever. A dominant or alpha personality dog should never be struck, even if it was meant in the most gentle way. But I mainly feel this way because it is something I have been told a lot by professional dog trainers, so I am just going off their experience. I never have had to even spank my dogs to get them to do what I need them to do.

As for the protection aspect, I think that kind of training would depend on what the family would like the dog to be used for. Do they really want a 'watch dog' or do they want a family pet? Because I think that's the biggest key.

***Edited By: huntersmom on 2/10/2005 12:35:59 AM***
Reason: changed wording

I have had dobermans for the past 30 years. I agree with all the comments of the pack mentality and that you and your family are members of the pack. The one thing that I have not seen in any of the comments is that the number 6 dog in the pack will never challange the number 4 dog. The #6 must challange the #5 and if this challange is unsuccessfull then it will stay there, however, if the #6 dog wins the challange and becomes the #5 dog then they will next challange the #4 dog and so on. This is how young dogs move their way up through the pack and push out the older weaker dogs. The stronger dogs at the top of the pack is important to the survival of the pack. This survival instinct does not go away because we domesticate them. If you let your doberman move above your child in the pack then you can be sure that the dog will then try your wife

Let look at this breed itself for a minute we are talking about a doberman here. The doberman breed was designed primarily for protection. I am not talking about traing a guard dog so to speak I am talking about giving the dog a purpose. Dobermans are not fuzzy little house pets. They are a working class breed. Yes the basic anology of the pack and the pecking order is correct but you cannot allow that to rule your reasoning and thus dictate your response. And jut to be clear yet again, I AM a professional trainer. I specialize with dobes and pits.... This is not a cocker spaniel or a begal here this is a doberman and you cannot just bring a doberman home and think everything will be all warm and fuzzy the dog NEEDS a job to do. Teaching the dog to make that child her number one priority will help insure that she would protect before harm her. #5 #6 #3 sorry but I just do not agree. again theories not absolute fact. Any dog with enough guts who gets a bug up their but to move up the ranks will challenge a higher up. Again these are domesticated dogs they cannot be allowed to practice pack behaviour. Period. Your asking for trouble if you think this dog is a mere house pet and thats it. This dog can analize already at her age they are extremly inteligent. She is at a prime age where she can learn the most and benifit from it. Trust me teach your dog to obay your child and make that her primary job and she will automatically protect her. The "check it out" command works great with kids. Again gives the dog a task to focus on and a job to do. You will find after a while the dog will not go through a door without being told she can and in doing so each time she will be cautious of your childs safety and obediant to her commands. If you don't work with her now she will just be a tragedy waiting to happen. I have been training nearly 15 years I know what I am saying here.

these are my babies.... http://pitbulls-dobermans.tripod.com

pitsanddobes you dogs are beautiful. so sorry to hear about your pit that was killed trying to save your husband.

I agree with what you're saying, I was just confused because you quoted something I said about pack order and said you didn't agree, but you were talking about pack order yourself. I just didn't understand what you were disagreeing about. What I get from your comment is that you are basically saying a dobbie is a dog that needs something to do. A job. And that they are the type of dog that was bred for specific purposes, and I totally agree with that. The wording in your comment just confused me, that's all :)

Thanks for all the advice. I have been trying to involve my daughter in all aspects of my Dobe's training and getting her to give lots of commands and praise etc. What i have noticed is that when my daughter walks past my puppy to get to me she stretches forward to nip her but if she walks exactly the same route to get to my partner dobe doesnt bat an eyelid. admitedly dobe is always doing stuff with me -walks /training/ etc and i spend most of the day just her and me whilst child is in school so could it be a jealous thing? its as if she is saying 'leave alone she is my mum not yours?!' i really want to stop any bad habits before she does damage thats all- my whole family adore dobe and we will do all we can to help her learn and be a nice dog to be around

ok i see what you are saying and yes it could be partially a jelousy thing. do you take her with you when you go out? If so cut dow considerbly. it is good you are working withher as you are she needs strict dicipline. Another thing that might help her is say you givew your daughter a snack give the dog a treat, feed her when you feed your daughter, sit with your daughter on your lap and the dog next to you. pet the dog with your daughter in your lap. be sure that whenever your daughter tells he something and she does not obay you insist on obedience. For example, tell your daughter that it is time to teach dog a trick. Work on lets say sitting. Have your daughter tell her to sit. If she does it immediatly you praise her if she does not push down on her back side just above her tail and make her sit. Talk once and insist on obediance.
This dog is looking to you for approval. Any unwarrented behaviour shoul;d be addressed immediatly. One thing about dobes is they chose you you do not chose them. say for example you have mom dad son and daughter. Mom absolutely loves dobes and dad gets her one for her birthday. Dog refuses to listen to mom but does whatever son says, follows son around ect. This dog has chosen the son. In the dobermans mind you belong to her she does not belong to the family. Dobermans can be VERY stubborn and try your patience. My female listens to me and is hard headed with my husband. My male is quick to obay my husband but acts dumb as a box of rocks with me lol. Now imagine that since I trained them both myself. Rusty was trained for my husband as his service dog. I spent months training him by hand commands and teaching him how to alert for the sounds around him. He was exceptionally obediant. Soon as I made the transition over from me to mark and he grasped his "purpose" I was old news. He had obayed me to perfection before but at the end of the day he had chosen Mark. He simply obayed me out of convenience because he knew the faster her learned the faster his training time was over and her could be back with mark again.

Around about 18 months to 2 years old her whole attitude is going to change. She will do what we trainers call "comeing into her own." She will then start to get a strong mind of her own and want to do things her way as if the old way is no longer acceptable. Consistancy is the key with a doberman more so then most other breeds. So be consistant, speak only once and then enforce the command. because of your situation any form of disobediance with respect to your child CANNOT be allowed. A dobermanns training is never ending it is life long and anyone who tells you different is a liar.

as for the pack issue yes I did mention the pack behaviour but i also said this this is part of them but ONLY a part. The pack behaviour cannot be allowed whatsoever. Dogs are den animals we know this and that is why a crate for a dog is a good thing as that is their safe haven and we strongly discourage dicipline while in the crate. this is fine to allow a dog to have a safe place. Thsi part of their inharent behaviour is perfectly acceptable. But the alpha dog mentality is not ok. Humans cannot start running their households like packs or we are going to have problems with more and more dogs. My dogs are loved beyound words but they live in MY world and in my home. If I were in thier world in the wild living in a cave and running on hunts then I would live by their rules. But I don't so they live by MY rules. ANY kind of pack behaviour must be discouraged.

But if you're saying it's 'your' world, and 'your' rules, isn't that the same thing as saying that you're the alpha? That IS a pack order. When you show a dog that you're the boss, that's basically what you're doing. And that's what I was saying as well, that you need to establish that you're the top dog, the boss....I'm so darn confused by this entire discussion. It's just all very contradicting to me. Saying that pack orders should be discouraged but then saying that you need to make sure the dog knows that you're the boss. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. Anyone feel free to explain if you can, lol.

Pits, I agree with what you are saying. You misunderstood where I was going. My dogs are treated with love, everything is done with love. The point I was trying to make is the dog will fit in to our world if we show him how, but if you don't train him to the ways of our world and allow him to just do his own thing the pack mentality will surface. I made that mistake with my first alfa male and we went to battle when he was about 1-1/2 or 2 years old. He challanged both my wife and myself. His challange was met with resistance and we never had a problem with him ever again as a matter of fact he did try to take out someone that he saw as a threat to my wife one day. Every doberman I have had since then was handled differently as puppies, they were treated with love but firmly corrected. My way was the only way as far as they were concerned, but with love, even corrections with love. Every dog I have had has been loyal to the family and except for the one candy butt female I had the rest of them would lay their lives down for the family, the entire family.

***Edited By: Renorey on 2/10/2005 4:23:00 PM***
Reason: Word correction

"The point I was trying to make is the dog will fit in to our world if we show him how, but if you don't train him to the ways of our world and allow him to just do his own thing the pack mentality will surface."

Exactly! Pack behaviour is part of their nature but only a part. Point being i said earlier that I raise my dogs as i raise my children. Consistancy, love, guidence. You do not compromise with a doberman. A firm stand must be taken and never deviate from that. Of course they will try to revert back to pack tendencies but it must not be allowed period. Addie my female mothers all the dogs older and younger and they don't question that but she is not alpha dog none of them are. I don't allow that. No one gets to eat first they all eat together. No one decides who goes or comes first it is first come first serve and they know it. with the exception they do not dare push me out of the way for anything. Among eachother they must remain equal but as opposed to humans they know we are above them. And as I said if I were in the wild living in a cave I would do it their way but I am not. To focus on pack behaviour and allow it to surface is to defete the whole point of having a domesticated animal. these animals are far different for wild dogs and it must be kept that way. I am very particular abou tthis issue especially since when there are children involved. I do not want to see someones kid get mauled because pack behaviour is encouraged and the dog wants to fight for her place above a child.

It is shepherding. Thats what it sounds like. It also doesn't sound serious. Best thing to do is teach your dog that your child is the beta, the the dog is the lowest. Have your child give her treats and such. Try including her (as you've been doing) in many fun activities.