Puppymill-there's lots of definitions out there. As a breeder-a small private breeder-they digust me. I can't see how anyone with any sort of conscience can do anything of the sort! So please do not take my post in defense of anyone who truly operates one!

I see so many posts here-somethings wrong with my dog, my dog eats poop, my dog has social issues, etc and it is almost always blamed on a puppymill. I've also heard where people are accused of being puppymills because they don't answer emails.

I guess what upsets me about many people jumping on the bandwagon and accusing breeders of being a puppy mill-is how do you know? I mean really know? Did you go there? Some people are just not polically correct and can't handle a conversation well. Some may have made an honest mistake in the breeding. It doesn't mean they are a puppymill because of that. ANy breeder can be an a** about honoring a contract-regardless of who they are and how many dogs.

The truth is, I have been around the country and seen many kennels-some that I have been horrified at and some very nice commercial breeders as well as good and bad private breeders. So I have seen it all-good and bad and new exactly what I didn't want to become or be. I have also been to many people who breed show dogs and seem them stacked in crates. Yes, they do breed and show dogs, but because they show-they are above the puppymill status. This is probably a rare few, as I do show as well and certainly do not treat my dogs this way. But it's all in the public relations here.


I know the media loves to play things up-I was a journalism major in college and how the media loves a good story. I also am very familiar with PETA's tactics and public relations. Some groups like PETA actually use photo editting software to manipulate images to be worse than they are-I'm not saying this is always the case ans I know there are some that are that bad. But why are we, as obvious dog lovers allowing the media and groups like PETA to tell us what the guidelines are in calling someone a puppymill.Making someone aware is not what the media is doing-they are taking it to the next level.


My plea to all of you today that take the time to read this is EDUCATION! Pure and simple. Many here know how I feel about crossbreeding and the profits. I see so many terrible posts from honest people who just wanted a pet. I encourage all of you when thinking about a pet to become more educated to the breeder, get referrences, call the USDA if they are licensed, really go the extra mile. Find out what the genetic problems are and address that with the breeder first. Make sure you know the laws and have a written signed contract with everything outlined.

I am not here to critize or blame, but have seen this forum divided between the breeders that are here and the owners. We all have one goal-we love dogs and it shows. I want to unite us in believing that education without the media, without groups like PETA is out there. We just need to use it. That way we can focus our attention on finding the true puppymills and not spending time accusing someone of being one, who may not be.

Good day, my friends with a common love!

***Edited By: myshadow on 3/15/2005 11:37:48 AM***
Reason: edit

I am so glad someone said it because whenever I say anything I get a beating down. Thank you for saying what many of us are thinking. It was very well put.

Please, Shadow explain: Why on earth would a responsible breeder become USDA licensed? How good is the Department of Agriculture at inspecting a breeder's facilities? What do they require?

These are rhetorical of course- but I will not allow a complete falsehood to go uncorrected. Simply put, a USDA license is a RED FLAG. With blinking neon lights, a marching band and billboards screaming "COMMERCIAL BREEDER! RUN!"

It's quite true that all bad breeders are not puppymills. Commercial breeders are NOT in it for the love of the dogs- but may not qualify as a mill. They still aren't the place to get a family pet.

there is no such thing as a good commercial breeder. animals are not a product to be mass produced and sold throughout the country as if they were dishes. period.

Well now you all know how much of an advocate of adopting I am but here again you also adopt the problems both health and often behaviour that come with the dog. While many of us understsand this and choose to adopt anyway others may not want this. Again Choice. Some people might want to go to a comercial breeder that has done testing and cares for their dogs. Not saying it is right or wrong but a valid reason. I am sort of torn because while I agree that the overpopulation is a problem (which is why I no longer breed period) I also think that there are commercial breeders out there that take very good care of their parent dogs and their pups. they are few in number and a rare bird so to speak but they do exist. Lets not pass judgment on every breeder that does not do things the way we think they should. To me if they are takeing very good care of their animals and testing and ensuring they are healthy and of good temperment then my only issue is the overpopulatin problem. I am not surprised that there are a grweat number of people who DO NOT realize just how bad the problem really is. I didn't for a long time. Did not mean I didn't care I just didn't know. When I learned I Stopped breeding all together.

***Edited By: pitsanddobes on 3/15/2005 12:53:50 PM***
Reason: hdsajlkdsl

The problem, P&D- is that a commercial pet breeding operation either: breeds MANY litters a year (not something a responsible, loving breeder could do and maintain complete welfare for their animals) or sells to petstores, brokers or bunchers (what kind of person who loves their pets would sell their offspring to the highest bidder?).

Commercial breeders are NOT a place to find a pet. Responsible breeding practices do NOT take place at one for the very definition of one defies the possibility.

Pet overpopulation is an issue of course (with 7 times as many dogs and kittens born as humans each day) and needs to be addressed as it is. But commercial breeders are NOT a good place to find a pet. You'll not only be ripped off (they add a middle man or two by selling to brokers who in turn sell to stores- everyone needs to profit), but will miss out on the wealth of information and experience a responsible breeder has to offer.

If you don't care if your pet is responsibly bred- then why the hell NOT adopt one? Why rip yourself off- put YOUR $$$ into a business that survives off the reproductive organs of innocent animals who SHOULD be loved and adored like their puppies will hopefully be- and risk falling in love with an animal that *MOST LIKELY* (I'm not saying it's impossible- but a commercial breeder is all about bottom line) doesn't do proper genetic testing on their breeding stock or understand the genetics of their lines?

Commercial breeders are not ALWAYS puppymills- but they are ALWAYS bad breeders and not a place to buy a puppy (or kitten) from.

I'll touch more on this later, but not all USDA licensed breeders actually sell to pet stores. They keep the license in case a falsehood is ever brought against them, then they have inspection reports.
It does not guarantee they are ethical breeding wise, or business wise, but it does mean they are required to care for their dogs.
Most puppymills that we see would never be able to be licensed and could never be and are selling privately.

This post was not intended to make everyone mad to be encourage education and not to dilute the term puppymill as many are doing. It is reserved for the most disgusting of breeders.

To me-genetic testing, careful breeding, guarantee=big bucks and I'd gladly pay it to get a quality bred dog. If I didn't have the money, I'd go to the shelter. Why pay the big bucks and get nothing for it. To me, a dog from a mill or byb is worth no more than a couple hundred dollars at best, and you must be aware of the gamble you are taking, but at least if you do have problems, your initial output is not as much. Actually a shelter dog may be safer because at least it's older and has been examined and some problems may already be picked up or ruled out. Strictly from a financial point of view, you're being taken for paying nearly a thousand from a pet store or byb.

As for the moral aspect, its been covered to death, so I won't go there.

they pass USDA inspections, but arent the requirements silly? like the amount of kennel space per dog, etc? who cares if its clean, is still a small cage housing 1-2- or 3 dogs who have no/little human contact, little o rno space...etc. whoopee they pass. so that one day thekennels were clean enought tt squeak by.

this one's gonna be a brawl

Well said shadow: Dont mind some of the comments in here alot of people in this forum like to turn everything people say into a debate. Thats whats wrong with it you cant say anything in here without getting jumped on. I Think some people think they know it all.
I think if you know something or want to share something with others you should do it in a nice way just like you did. Good job and you gave me somethink to think about thanks for the info. keep speaking your mind cause you do it with good taste.

I just would like to say I am a small USDA licensed breeder. I am a breeder because I love my dogs. I have my license so that I have some kind of foot to stand on if there is a dispute. For example, I sold a litter of pups for an elderly friend and transported a pup to one of the buyers. This can be considered illegal if not a licensed broker and since I have a dozen "breeders" in my area and yes, a puppy mill or two, I chose to go the safe route and become licensed in case one of them wanted to turn me in. I have nothing to hide and went the extra step to prove so.

I resent most posts on this board when it comes to this topic and I just wanted to give a BIG thank you to Myshadow. I have read many of your posts and have always appreciated your view on most things. I do resent most posts on this forum because I know that a great number of the posters are children and have a lot to learn. I usually do not reply to anything said on this forum because of this reason.

***Edited By: bell33us on 3/15/2005 1:58:40 PM***
Reason: spelling

Shadow, I don't know how much you understand about the USDA- but yes, puppymills ARE required to be licensed and it's quite easy to shut them down if they aren't. The USDA is RESPONSIBLE for the CREATION of puppymills- it was THEIR suggestion that farmers start breeding household pets alongside their stock animals when agriculture hit a huge slump. Because THEY suggested it- they oversee it. Puppymills were born to replace CROPS.

USDA requires a license and registration for a breeder with more than 3 breeding female cats, dogs, exotics, etc.; one who sells to research companies (directly or through bunchers), petstores, or any other non-end placement netting more than $500 a year; or one who sells more than 25 dogs and/or cats (and/or other companion animals) a year. Puppymills obviously fall into this category.

Now lies the problem. USDA regulations don't require SQUAT. They have few inspectors- most registered breeders don't even see one every year, some have gone for 5+ years without a single inspection. All they require? Closed food containers, temperature control in the kennels, minimal living space. They don't monitor the health or the wellbeing of the animals at all- leaving that up the to required annual vet inspection. The problem with THAT is.... we all know how MILL VETS work. They pre-sign health certificates by the 1000's without ever seeing an animal, SIGNING off on a facilities inspection they didn't do is a cakewalk for them.

And if a facilty inspection does take place? Dogs and cats can be LEGALLY raised in wire cages of the size that are used for chickens. They don't have to be able to turn around- they don't even have to be able to stand up.

A USDA certification is NOT a good thing.

Holy crap- triple posts?

***Edited By: longdogs4me on 3/15/2005 6:33:24 PM***
Reason: Sorry. :)

:)

***Edited By: longdogs4me on 3/15/2005 6:33:51 PM***
Reason: :)

:)

***Edited By: longdogs4me on 3/15/2005 6:34:08 PM***
Reason: :)

Puppymills, yes it is a descripton that is used too much, but if you work in rescue and see the dogs that come into the rescue's that are taken from mills that are shut down, you would know the terrible facility they are. What is a puppy mill? Everyone will have their own idea of what it is, but it is generally described as a facility that breeds severl breeds and usually has hundreds of dogs, that are kept alive only using the minimum of food, and no vet care at all. C-sections are done on females by the owner, not a vet, if it is even caught before the female dies trying to give birth to pups that are too big for her. These dogs are sick, have rotten teeth if they have any left, they are full of tumors, or may be crippled from trying to walk on the wire cages. They are thrown food and have to fight to eat. They get matted and have terrible sores under their hair when it is removed. If you want to see some of these dogs, just join a rescue group. We get them in all the time, and it is truly heartbreaking. The really sad thing is that it is not only puppymills that treat their stock like this, but also some really shabby BYB's Some breeders are really good, but everytime I see a breeder advertising several different breeds, and they have several breeding pairs of each one it sure raises a red flag in my mind. It takes time to take good care of an animal, and when you have 30 or more, you do not have the time to properlyu look after them and socialize puppies that are born every day. If you want to make money, go out and get a job, don't try to breed enough puppies to get rich.

I agree that there a few commercial breeders that are indeed legit, and their reputation gets ruined by the bad ones that don't care about their animals. But the sad fact is that there is a lot of red flag statements in most commercial breeders ads that scream puppy mill. Things like, 'available all year', having 10 breeds or more to chose from, the dogs being kept in a 'facility' away from people, puppies of all ages, multiple registries...the list goes on. And there are some breeders that can explain all this (I have met a few and have found that they really care about their dogs) but the majority don't and people just don't want to take the chance. To kind of give an example: If you had 2,000 to blow on a diamond ring. You could either go to jewelry store, or you could go down to Mexico and buy one from a peddler. The one from the peddler might be just as pretty, but it's way cheaper than the jewelry store. But then you bring the diamond ring home and inspect it. The clarity is really bad, and there are lines in it. So now you find out that you have a diamond that you paid less for, but still way overpaid because it's worth even less than what you paid for it. Also knowing that if you want something of good quality, you would in essence, go to a jewelry store instead....That is what happens with a lot of breeders. Because SO many commercial breeders sell lower quality dogs that have poor lives up until adoption, it makes people leery of going to people like that. It makes people want to advocate responsible breeders. Ones that want to improve the breed, and not just breed for money. A 'quality' dog rarely even brings a good breeder much money. I think that is the stance most people take on this whole thing. I also think it's the right of the consumer to want to have the best. And unfortunately, commerical breeding is not 'the best'.

As everyone knows this is a sore topic for me too! LOL! Thank you Longdogs4me for speaking the truth. The reason this topic comes up is because of all the new people that come on asking about "poo this & poo that" or I'm looking for a pure ...... It doesn't hurt to educate every now & then as a reminder to the new people that don't know. This really doesn't need to be a fight issue guys. Lets chill please & agree to disagree...

Rhonda I do agree-let's chill! My point is that the term puppymill is losing it's strength when we use it as loosely as it is being used here.

What I want everyone to do is stop sitting back and accusing everyone and do something about it-not complaining-doing. EDUCATION! It's the key. There are way too many posts on this board about people buying from pet stores and feeling ripped off-and that is very sad. Seek help, but then don't run around being mad about the choice you made and simply calling the breeder the problem. You purchased the puppy from the store, people are encouraging mixed breeding, people are making quick judgements based on others opinions and not doing the research themselves. Together we can make informed decisions and make the meaning of puppymill a true word again instead of slapping it up everytime we are angry about something.

If you want it to stop, do not be an enabler. Find a wonderful mix at a shelter, stop buying from pet stores, form your own opinions with the facts not someone else's opinions.

There are many good opinions on this board regardless of age and I knew I was going to be blasted for this one, but I am taking the chance as it has been bothering me for a while. I love looking at others dogs and sharing in the stories, but sometimes we have to take a stand regardless of others opinions. There is no right or wrong here, only opinions but if we can unite and keep our opinions and still have a common goal with the proper presentation we can succeed. I'm not talking forming another PETA, I hate them almost as much, but giving the consumers and new members here the facts.

I wanted nothing but to represent the truth about puppymills vrs commercial breeders vrs private breeders (not byb). I feel that I was very justified and qualified to make that statement as I have been there, I have seen abuse by both breeders and show breeders. I have seen wonderful USDA licensed kennels with people that do care and it is a true love of theirs-not for greed and money.

I just hope that those of you who now think I am a horrible person have been to all aspects of this as I have.