I have committed to the purchase of a puppy who will be old enough to come home to me in two weeks.
Through the course of talking to the breeder, I got to trust her, and really think highly of her. She's had nothing but a supportive attitude all along.
However, today, through random questions, I learned that she bred two different types of dogs, both small breeds. That I wasn't sure how to take. Then she went on to say that she has five females of one type, and a few of the other, with at least one male of each type.
But, they all stayed in kennels in a seperate part of the house, and aren't allowed to be in the house, free, with the ones she's deemed her 'pets'. And they only come out to go to the bathroom, then right back in the kennels. Is it normal to have 'pets' and then, oh, I don't know, your 'for breeding only', and keep them all seperated?
I don't really know how I feel about that, and I was wondering if anyone here can either a: reassure me that it's completely acceptable and normal or b: tell me that I just gave a couple of hundred bucks to a neglectful owner...in which case I'd feel horrible, but try to do something to change the situation, as in, see about not buying pup or something. I don't know.
***Edited By: isabella on 4/28/2005 5:38:27 AM*** Reason: misspelling
I can't really answer that from a professional stand point, only from a personal point of view.
I bred once each with my Lab and my Pyrs. I had only 1 breed at the time. I was not and am not even a "hobbyist" breeder. 2 litters from different dogs and breeds in 20 years does not qualify me as a breeder.
The Dam in the case of the lab and both Pyrs, Sire and Dam were part of the family. Pups were raised as such as well and were well socialized before going to their new homes.
I know what my feelings are (don't like her set-up), but am not sure that's of any sound advise to you.
Talk to her about any misgivings you have over the breeding stock and pups not having the opportuinty to be socialized as part of a family. See what she has to offer by way of explaination. Perhaps she only keeps them seperate when breeding?
***Edited By: pyrmom on 4/28/2005 6:00:02 AM*** Reason: xxx
ooh okay, yes. I should maybe have been more clear. I apologize. It's my understanding she puts all the females and males in all seperate kennels and doesnt have them as a part of her 'house' pets. In heat or not..
She does, however, have the mom who had the most recent litter, and the litter itself, in her kitchen in a playpen thing.
That's why I'm torn, I have faith in the pup I'll be getting, but no faith in the quality of life all those 'breeder' dogs are getting. Does that make any sense? Kinda like, I feel bad contributing to such a set up, if in fact said set up is shady or cruel, or whatever.
I picture it as a terrible set up in my mind, when in fact it could be clean, happy, healthy and typical for breeders to house their dogs in such a manner.
Phew...I hope this makes some sense. Thank you for your response, though pyrmom(?i think). I do appreciate it very much.
sorry to say but it sounds like a small mill. i do have friends that are breeders and some keep there dogs in the house and some have kennels. i dont agree with the kennel thing i dont think thats not much of a life for the dogs. you can ask her for a phone number of somone who has gotten one of the pups or just make a unplaned visit. to see how clean she keeps her kennels. how do the dogs act in the kennels? do they have food and water? do they run to the back of there cages when you walk over to them? well good luck. i hope this works out for you.
The breeder that I'm getting my pup from has all her dogs in the house. They are all part of the family. There's a crate in her living room, a pet blancket thrown over her couch, gates up to block certain rooms, etc. But basically, they are all pets. She also has a fenced in yard so they can run and use up all that energy!
I breed and rasie Australian Shepherds.I have 9 all together.I only have 3 breeding female and 2 stud dogs. The other 4 are fix.Cody and Andy like it better out side they get to hot inside the house the others stay in the house.We don't have kennels.We have 5 acers so they can run and play and cheak fences.(the boys cheak the fences) Andy was a kennel dog from the time he was born untell 6 months old when I first got Andy he was real shy he did not know how to run or play.He only got 1 cup of food a day so he was real skining I think he was 20 lbs now he is 69 lbs.Andy because of lack of food use to eat his and the other dogs poo.I finly got him to stop that. Now Andy is 3 going on 4 years old.
My posts lately have been horribly written, so I'll try better with this one. I am a private terrier breeder and novice handler, a small one. I do have my dogs in a seperate kennel, but they are allowed to play on the farm, in the yard, in the house, in the car, chase cats and bunnies etc. They have a lot of room to do what they want and are very happy litttle dogs. I also have more than 1 breed, but have chosen very similar breeds so that the genetic and hereditary issues are similar sowhat I research and study applies to all of them. Our kennel is awesome and sometimes I feel it's nicer than our home. THe only thing missing is a hot tub! I do know of breeders that keep their dogs locked in kennels or pet taxis in the house. They say that 'yes' they do keep them in the house, as it seems to be more politically correct, but are the conditions better than having them in a seperate building. I've heard of many breeders having their dogs taken away because they were in stacked crates and pet taxis all over their home, and one of the most recent was a handler/breeder. Yikes. So when it comes down to having 2 breeds and also how she keeps the dogs, you may just have to do some investigating. I personally would rather see them not in crates all day, but that's my opinion. Also, it would be nice to do a unplanned visit, but as I have said in another thread, that's really not right to do. Even though some breeders are full time, they may not be home, may have other visitors, may have some personal (not doggy related) disorder in their home, or have a child's schedule to attend to as well. Just because someone is a breeder doesnt' mean they have to be available for someone to drop by 24 hours a day. Being a breeder takes a great deal of work without any vacations or get aways-so please respect that most breeders will either offer set hours for visiting or ask you to have an appointment. If you'd like to get a little more insite on the health and care in regards to their housing situation, you can ask for a vet referrence. There are many problems that can arise from having a dog in a crate or kennel too long, so a vet referrence or referrence may be a good thing.
I am a breeder of Papillons. Just 3 girls, and 3 little boys. My ladies are in the house as pets, but when they have pups ( once a year ) They each have their own pens , in the house. for the safty of the pups. Each has a doggie door that goes out to their own large yard. This seems to work well for them and me. I do have a seperate building for my boys again with doggie doors and each with large yards. Reason for this is Breeding fellows like to mark every thing in sight and smell. I think dogs should be allowed to be dogs, to dig, run and play. I hate when they are kept in cages on wire and don't get to be what they were born to be
Not being a breeder myself but having seen a puppy mill- that's what that sounds like to me. I hate to say it, but it sounds like your breeder isn't acting in the best interest of her dogs. They are kenneled ALL the time except when they potty?! That's wrong- dogs, no matter how big or small, need excercise to stay healthy. Not to mention, if the bitches are staying kenneled with puppies, the puppies aren't getting much socialization.
I'm sorry to say it- but that doesn't sound like a good breeder.
That would make me think, if I were you. My guys do spend time in the kennel (AKA dog pens outside) and in crates, but each one gets time loose with me in the house and in the yard. One-on-one time, as well as group play time. My guys are ALL my pets, are not segregated into "pet guys" and "producer guys". If I personally don't like a dog as a pet for myself, I find a home for that dog. It isn't fair to the dog to live with me if I am shortchanging it because I don't like it as a pet. I hope that makes sense?
I find it very odd... to have "pets" and to have "breeding dogs". The breeder I got Riley from has about 10-12 dogs and they are ALL family pets. They live on 10 acres of land so they mostly stay outside but are welcome to come in at any time.
Another breeder I met for Springers also had a large yard for his 7 dogs, and at night they went in their pens which were outside, but they were all considered family.
I hesitate to write this, but it's my opinion and I am entitled like everyone else that has written. EVERYONE buying a puppy expects it to come from an ethical person who gets health testing done, show, and has 3 dogs only that are also treasured pets. That would be fine if you wanted to be on a waiting list for 10 years and pay $40,000 for a pup. Yes I said fourty thousand. Suppy and demand. I do get health testing, show and breed to Champions but I get a LOT of money that is required to do this, but I am also the first one to admit that not everyone needs or CAN AFFORD this. There may be dogs out there that will make just as nice of PETS as mine for 1/4 of the price. It's always a gamble purchasing a live animal and anyone who tells you differently is lying. I recently purchased a show pup, mom is an AM/CAN CH. dad is a SOM CH. I was shocked after I signed the paperwork when they shown me the rest of their show dogs that were stacked in wire crates in a room in their house. I only hope that they kept them outside in the kennels most of the time. That was their situation, I didn't agree with it, but at the same time, my pup is a SUPER, high quality pup that I am SURE will Champion. Go check out the pup and go with your gut.
In many places like where I live, there are laws that prohibit you from having more then 3 dogs in side your house. If you have more then 3 dogs then you need a kennel license which requires you to keep only 3 dogs in the house as pets. ALL the rest MUST be in kennels outside your home. You are not even allowed to let them to run loose in your own fenced property except for short exercise. It is the law.
Beside, if you would let 10 dogs, especially larger high energy breed in your home, they can and will destroy your house and its contents, not to mention the amount of work it will require to keep the house in a sanitary condition.
I would NEVER buy from anyone that treats their dogs as livestock / property & not as a true pet. It is completely inhumane to keep a dog crated except for going potty! That is totally insane! She is treating her kennel dogs as money makers & nothing more! I highly recommend you do through a breed rescue group, shelter or pound as there are many dogs needing homes that are purebred & mixed ones also. That person you described I would call a Back Yard Breeder & nothing less! She's in it for the money. You'd do the parents & pups a huge favor by walking away. The parents are who truly suffer as breeding machines.
Oh & yes she would be required to have a Kennel Lic. with that many dogs but it does NOT mean the others are to be kenneled!
***Edited By: rhondakbt on 4/28/2005 12:00:20 PM*** Reason: Added
Okay, hopefully this will help you and people will really think I'm nuts. :)
I breed Shetland Sheepdogs and within the last year have gotten 3 Australian Shepherds that I hope to breed once they are 2 and have their hips cleared. My parents and I have 2 seperate houses on the same property - and I have 4 siblings, 3 of which are at home full time and help with the dogs/are active with the dogs. With that said we have 24 dogs including several spayed females and a neutered male. 19 of them are "breeding dogs".
Every single one of our dogs lives in either my house or my parents house. (yes I am nuts. :) And I wouldn't have it any other way. We don't have a "kennel" setup. Our puppy nursery is a HUGE room in my house. This is also where our girls in heat stay. My desk is in the nursery and I spend at least 8 hours a day there. I spend a minimum of 10-12 hours a day in the nursery. When we have a new litter I actually sleep in the nursery the first week so that the Mom knows that she has emotional support (because they are pets, we don't want them to think having puppies is like being in jail.) Each of our dogs is treated as a pet would be BECAUSE THEY ARE FAMILY MEMBERS. They get the same vet care, food, heartworm preventative, toys, bones, living arrangements I expect from every one of my puppy families. This is how we insure that our dogs have ideal temperament that they are passing on to their puppies. Because we KNOW them. You can't get to know a dog in a kennel.
My house is set up for the dogs. I have all vinyl flooring so if an accident happens it is easily cleaned up. My couch forever has a dog blanket on it to protect against muddy paws and rawhide stains. My floor has several dog beds on it. I have a queen size bed so that I fit in the bed as well. :) I couldn't imagine what life would be like with out the dogs constantly around me. We also have 6 HUGE outdoor yards (averaging 100 ft by 100ft - the largest is for the Aussies and is 450 ft square). The Aussies will occasionally sleep outdoors when they weather is warm as they prefer it. But usually all the dogs are inside somewhere.
My personal view is that if a breeder doesn't socialize her adult dogs how can she give you any guarantee that her puppies have great temperament. If her dogs never get to come in the house, how does she know her puppies will make good pets? I don't care how she treats her "pets". I care about the treatment of the breeding dogs as these are whose temperament your puppy will be inheriting.
I personally think a breeder that has to have a seperate building for their dogs AND they aren't allowed to be active in their family's life, has too many dogs. (this is coming from someone who works very hard to make sure I have 24 happy, healthy dogs) They aren't cattle. They shouldn't be in the barn. They are "Man's Best Friend" and deserve a lifestyle that suits their title. :)
Wow. I'm pretty much devastated. I thought I was doing everything right..
See, I may get slammed for this, but I found him on the internet. She doesn't have a big 'I breed tons of dogs' website, per se, it was on a dog finding website (that I don't think I should name, heh) where she was simply advertising this litter of pups.
Anyways, she does testing/proof of the health of the pup, concerning genetic defects 'typical' to the breed, neuter contract, vet checks/shots/wormings, a health guarantee, sends me pictures every few days, writes every day with new stories of what the pups have been up to. Calls me, or I call her, with any or all questions, etc. Then this came up. I'm super bummed.
I thank you all for your responses, it's been very informative.
I would hope that you dont take this wrong..but You dindt do any thing wrong. Just by buying a pup on the net isnt wrong either. Many of us have doe it too. I know I have. I just went to see and pick them up and did my research online. I think that is an effecient way to go about it. But, I have 2 breeds..well a 3rd straggler really..I have 7 dogs. I have 3 Mini schnauzers and 3 import line German Shepherds and 1 ancient brittney. I keep all mine in the house but do crate them on accasion..especaill if some one comes over..much easier to handle then 7 dogs going nuts on the company. I have a huge fenced in area and they are all put out in turns as 1 shepherd doesnt like one schnauzer and conflicts have come up. That makes for a harder go but it is managable. I off the best that I can to the new buyers and stand behind my pups 100%, and I would hope that no one would judge me poorly because I have 7 dogs and at times they are crated. Please do your self a favor so you can feel good about this and visit the lady...and go from there...You have already goiven her a deposit so you are involved...it isnt the end oof the world..Just if it turns out to be a mill...then you have learned the lesson of what to avoid. I wish you the best and please dont stress out over your decision. You did the research and many people dont tell all at first...Take care
Issabella, I agree w/ the last posting. Don't worry about it if you are already committed to the puppy. How she chooses to take care of her dogs isn't your fault, and it sounds like if you were given the 'whole story' up front, you wouldn't have put a deposit on that puppy.
I believe that if you put a lot of time and training in to the pup during the first 4-6 months that YOU have it, it can overcome most of the setbacks from having minimal socialization as a very young pup.
As far as purchasing a pup over the internet, I have a feeling that this little discussion forum wouldn't be running if the parent site wasn't recieving revenues from people selling animals over the internet. There's nothing wrong with it, other than you are having to trust what someone maybe hundreds of miles away is telling you.
Chances are even if your pup would be considered homely, even if your puppy is naughy and untrained, you are going to fall in love with him and all his flaws, because no puppy or dog is perfect(not even Champions are perfect- they just have less flaws), but if you are a dog lover, you will love them anyway.