thank you scout. :) In the case of the akita, I wasn't there and their actions may have been uncalled for, however, it is the vet assistants job to keep the person who's drawing blood from getting bit, and one rule of restraint no matter how friendly the animal is is to hold the animal close to your body and to always keep control of the head. I always try to tell people if they are in the room with me, I'm not putting your dog in a headlock, I'm just giving him a hug. And I don't like to stick the animal with the needle twice so I want my restrainer to keep the dog as still as possible, because the smoother the blood draw, the more acurate the results and the less stress to the animal. No dog no matter how friendly can always be unpredictable at the vets office, especially if they aren't feeling well, and my job is to keep my other staff members and the owner, if they are present from getting bit. And I don't mind saying that if I have a particular breed that is known to bite I will always muzzle it no matter what. It doesn't hurt the dog and usually calms them and prevents an accident from happening. Most of the time though all I have to do is hug them and talk to them and they do fine.
I just had to sign in for this one. I once worked for a vet that said "going to the back" sounded like a gang or mob related thing and would allow anyone if they wanted to to see the entire veterinary clinic if they wanted to. Any thing like that can and should be done in the presence of the owner, the dog/cat will be more comfortable in the situations with the owner present, although some situations called for different measures, ie. aggression, fear, and uncontrollable behavior, for it may be to hard for owners to see the restraint. I for one do not like my animal taken outside my presence. Now I do not work for vets anymore I have more than 22yrs experience in the field, and all the vets I have worked with have allowed clients and the pets in the back, insurance reasons vary state to state. The only thing for insurance reasons I can see are the animal biting, which is why they generally dont have the client/owner restrain the animal upon exam.
I would have had no problem at all with a strong hug, and would not have objected in the least to the use of a muzzle. My problem was with an outright tackle and forcibly trying to hold my boy to the ground. Not OK! The one Vet actually apoligized, which I thought was pretty decent. Sorry, but there's no was in Hades that I'm going to sit back and say nothing while that's going on! I guess what it boils down to is, you may need to shop around for a while to find a good vet that suits you.
Well, Honey, I think too sometimes you get the people who try to restrain using their strength instead of their brain. You have to read the animal and make a judgment call. I wouldn't call tackling the animal a proper way to restrain though and a lot of times if you try to use force it freaks the animal out more than doing any good. Another rule of restraint, start with the least amount neccessary. I feel bad for your dogs that they had to go through that. I don't mind the owner being in the room if they'll let me do what I need to do and as long as the animal is behaving, its just been our protocol to take them out for lab procedures. And seriously the lighting in our exam rooms sucks and I like to be able to see as well as possible. Not that it can't be done...i placed a catheter in a black lab once that was dying on us so fast in bad light I didn't even think about it. And believe me I was nervous because the owner was an e.r. nurse. But she let me do what I needed to do. But, if I have a choice I like the lights in the treatment area.
I am with scout and ginger on this one. Lots of things can be done in the presence of the owner and when they can be, they should be. There are however times when taking an animal to the back so that things can be done in the most effective (quick and painless) way for the animals sake it is necissary and appropriate. I do agree that if you do not trust your vet with your animals then you are at the wrong clinic. I realize that you know your animal better then anyone else and there are things that you can do to help but the fact of the matter is that sometimes well meaning owners get in the way and make things harder on the animals. It is like when you see a kid throwing a tantrum and the mother gets down and babies him and tries to make it better but in the process endorces this bad behavior in essence making the tantrum worse and being counter productive. I am not saying that you are doing this (I do not know how you and your animals are at the vet so do not take this as a personal thing) But in cases like the one that ginger explained with the woman and her cat- her behavior undoutably made the situation harder on her kitty. Animals are very sensative to mood and when their people are stressed out, they take cues and behave in reaction to what they feel from us. There are many cases when people are totally calm at the vet and their presence makes it easier on the animal are there is absolutely no reason to seperate them and so it is not done.
I always hold Dalia at the vet cause she is great and she likes to know I am there. On the other hand there are times that I ask that one of the techs holds Muz cause she tries to climd up on me and gets even more upset. It goes much faster when someone else is doing it and everything is over before she knows it. She is getting more used to the routine and everything so I can hold her for more now but at the begining it was counter productive.
Not to be too rude but there are times when people need to put their own needs seccond and really think about what is the most rational thing to do that will make everything easiest on their animals. I think that a lot of the time people want to be with their animals because of their own needs and not cause it is what is really easiest on the animal. You need to also remember that these people are trained professionals. If you are so uncumfortable with them that you do not trust them to do what is best for your pets then I do think that you are at the wrong clinic- I would not be at a clinic for healthcare for my pet if i did not trust them with my animals life (given that, that is what they are there for)
In the hospital, you have to allow parents in the room when procedures are done to children.
However, most often, they are more of a hindrance than a help.
They're anxiety is picked up by the child. The child is less cooperative with the parent there. Sometimes, when trying to start an iv or draw blood, the parent is hovering over you, making the person doing the procedure nervous. They can actually be the cause of multiple sticks
I don't argue with their right to be there, but they really need to be educated on what behavior is necessary from them t o make it a success for all. And if they interfere, you should have the option of banishing them.
I guess my attitude came from a few bad experiences with another vet...one of my females was taken in the back to haveher nails clipped and the tech brought her back bleeding badly and telling me she was a difficult dog..Nope not the case.....anyhow, it has never happened again
I have been injured by more neurotic owners getting in my way of their neurotic untrained pet then anything else.
I understand your concerns and "my baby" this and "my baby" that, but for every bite I have avoided, for every time I have been slammed into walls, for every dog that I have had to hold down to have a freaking EAR looked at while it screamed, kicked, thrashed, and lunged snapping and biting becuase it'd never had an ounce of time or restraint put into it, there is an owner who often goes "what are you doing to him?"
I've had dogs lunge from crates at my face, lunge from their owners arms, spaz out in bath tubs, I've been sprayed in the face with anal glands, and I've been asked "What did you dot o make it happen."
Yes you don't want your pet out of your site, but good god, most of the time they are NOT doing anything to him that is so utterly horrible. I'm just reading all of this stuff and frankly I want to scream and write a spewing spamish list of fustrated curses, but that won't acomplish anything.
Sure, most of htepeopel ont eh forum have control of their pets, but remember, the vets office has a routean. For every single one of you there are about 20 other appointments that do not have "perfect gentlemen" as pets. I don't knwo if you've ever been slamed into a wall and beaten into the floor and gouged with the rank overgrown claws of a dog as you stopped it from biting the vet, or its owner, but it sucks, and it sucks a lot.
I just want to rip my hair out right now because you may feel horrible and offended, but 9 times out of 10 its easier without the owner, and the 10th time it often wouldn't matter, but you have a routean down.
Sometimes its JUST to keep everything moving. The fast stuff is done, dog back to you, vet comes in, to help witht he backlog of stuff. There are just so many freaking reasons WHY they might do the proceadues in the back...
Let me start by saying that I'm sorry you feel so offended by what I had to say, but you really don't know my situation. I'll take my 27 years experience with working breed dogs over that of the tackling tech who couldn't identify an Akita any day. Like I said before, I wouldn't have had the slightest problem with them using appropriate physical restraint. And if they were concerned that he might bite, by all means use a muzzle, but I'm not going to have my dog who was doing absolutely nothing wrong manhandled. That's just my opinion, and I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I'll stick with the Vet's that appreciate my ability to handle my own dogs. I'm afraid we may just have to agree to disgree on this one.
Last time I checked, I didn't say you had a clue about handling your own dog.
However, tihs thread became a bastarderize the vet and watch out if they take your dog thread.
And there isa totaly diffrent side to why some things happen. Mistakes are made. We have several dogs who we can NOT seperate from their owner sand we never do.
I've enver walked up to a dog and thrown myself on it and I don't plan to start. Our clinic specalizes in rotties, and becuase of that we get all the large working breed dogs becuase a clinic of women has a clue about how to ahndle them.
Frankly I have more issues from small dogs then big.
My POINT however, was to point out that there are reasons many thigns are done. I am not saying the vet is always correct, heaven freaking KNOWS I know that they are far from perfect.
But its my profession I've been doing for a few years and I'm going to protect it sure, because I'm the technician, not the vet, whos job it is to make sure no one gets hurt, and I am the one that normally obsorbs most of hte damage. Then I smile at the owner and wlak out of the room to collapse on hte other side of the door in pain.
Its my job, its fine, but its not just cut and dried.
My personal feelings are not hurt, but one sided disucssions fustrate me deeply. I wish more people had time to go and work at their local vet for a few shifts, cuz its really opened my mind to what the "adverge" world of pet owning is like.
And yes, responsible owners get lumped into preset habits, thats why I say no absoultes.
Anyway, I figured some would be offended, but after sitting on it for the duration of this thread, as an owner and a technician, I decided to comment as well.
"Then I smile at the owner and walk out of the room to collapse on the other side of the door in pain. " I know exactly how that feels. And 9 times out of 10 its the little dogs that inflict the most pain...like when they climb you like a tree and you end up with claw marks down your arms, neck and chin and all you're trying to do is clip its nails. I'd come home from work and the dh would say...oh, you smell, what happened today...just another day at the office, squirted in the face with anal glands, clawed to death by a pug, cat pooped on me while I was trying to draw blood...your typical stuff. Wish there were more "perfect gentlemen" out there. Make my day a lot easier. So thank you to all of you who's pets do behave at the vets office, because there aren't many and those are the ones I take a sigh of relief and thank God for.
Maybe it’s just me… BUT … I often feel when I go into the Vets office Some of the staff members have become very * Callus * . That feeling like we are just a number and a check. ( they would like to Hurry Up… Move Things along… they have other paying clients waiting… ) I must say those particular staff members Do not receive high respect from me and it is always discussed with my Vet right away. If they show you Callousness in the waiting area … how do you think they are treating your pet Behind closed doors “in the back”??
Firm believer that if one has gotten to the point where they feel bitter or disillusioned about the profession they have chosen… it is time to Move on.
Please Do not show my pet or me how Callus you’ve become.
As far a some of Us Owners … getting in the WAY… ummm, well The Staff Will just have to DEAL with It!
1. for the practical purpose… I AM paying YOU so it’s my call… 2. I am the one who cares for my pet 364 days out of every year… YOU only see them a day or so a year… So I know them the best. I control them the best… 3. the G*D complex that some staff members have .. that they know more is a NO-NO…. Get to know the owner First.. YOU may be surprised at how much background experience some of us Have. 4. and final … After the visit… the Care continues at HOME with US the Owner…so we Need to be involved .. we need to know what’s going on so we know how to best proceed with the care.
Then I smile at the owner and wlak out of the room to collapse on hte other side of the door in pain. ~~~~~ prime example : just get done dealing with the cat from hell, without any one getting injured (miracle) and it is time to return the cat to their owner. i have it wrapped in a towel with my hand on the scruff of its neck and the Dr. tells me to release the cats scruff before i walk in the room so the owner doesnt get upset. against my better judgement and my instincts i did just that only to have the damn cat whip around like the exorcist and bite me good on the hand. the cat launches out of my grip and is now loose. luckily after much fristration and my blood spilling everywhere i was able to shoo it in to the room with its owner while she stands at the door saying "is that MY kitty making all that noise" yeah lady that is your kitty now excuse me while i go mop up my blood that is all over the floor. the Dr. got an earful on that one also that day from me. as long as i am not hurting your animal in anyway i am gonna do what i can to not add a zillion more scars to my body. i get real sick of people asking me what happened to my arms and why do i have so many scars on them.
That feeling like we are just a number and a check. ( they would like to Hurry Up… Move Things along… they have other paying clients waiting… ) I must say those particular staff members Do not receive high respect from me and it is always discussed with my Vet right away.
did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason why it seems that way is because of the amount of times a day we have to listen to people bitch that the doctor is running late and they have been waiting for an hour to see the doctor ? that maybe there is a dog dying in the back that needs the attention of said doctor and that is why people have to wait. which in turn makes us want to speed things along just a little bit so we dont have to listen to more complaining ? you get them in quickly, they complain, they have to wait a few minutes, they complain. theres no winning is there ?
Firm believer that if one has gotten to the point where they feel bitter or disillusioned about the profession they have chosen… it is time to Move on.
it isnt disllusionment about our jobs. it is the sheer frustration of peoples attitudes.
for the practical purpose… I AM paying YOU so it’s my call…
as far as i am concerned if a pet owner wants to hold their nasty animal, or shove their hands in their pets mouth so it bites them instead of one of us i am perfectly happy to let them do so. the law says otherwise though. if an owner gets bit by their pet in our office then we can be sued. so if there is any question as to an owners capability to restrain their animal properly so no one gets injured then a tech has to hold the animal. i dont tell people how to run their businesses just because i am paying them to do something for me that i need done so i dont expect people to waltz in and tell me how to do my job either.
and if i could have a penny for every owner who "knows" their animal and swears up and down it wont bite, as it lunges for my face with its teeth bared and growling fiercely, i would be a rich woman right now.
Well. Scout…. I for One Wait with OUT complaining… Because I know there are Times When another animal IS a Priority…. I will wait for as Long as necessary or needed.
NOT ALL OF us- Owners are BAD …. to become *Callus* and Just ASSUME that WE ALL - are …is SAD.
Sorry that some owners complain, some owners get in the way, some owners blame the staff for doing their job ( holding the animal for treatment) , and So very sorry staff members get injured. However… at No time does that allow or excuse a *Callus* attitude.
AS far as the telling a Staff Member How to their Job…. Never said that was something I did… and if other Owners do… sorry…. What I did imply was SOME of Us Owners …. May have experience….and may know what we are doing and may know what the staff is doing… i.e.. YOUR Job.. >>> But that would never be known… because we are all bad and in the way???
As far as being Sued … not all offices have the same legal terms.
>>> Sorry to say but the overall TONE of your reply… says to me…. Callus. (that’s SAD … ) ? frustration… even so… your in the health CARE field… what type of attitude would YOU expect toward you and your animals… when going into the office?? If you where NOT already in the “click”?? <<<
ALL I am trying to say… IS … that Not all Of US are stupid , dumb, get in the way, don’t know what’s going on… have no clue , bow down and worship the staff… Owners. Some of us deserve the STAFFS respect….
GOD complex??? maybe... almost sounds like it.
***Edited By: ivydragonn on 8/20/2005 4:03:35 PM*** Reason: c ns
"and final … After the visit… the Care continues at HOME with US the Owner…so we Need to be involved .. we need to know what’s going on so we know how to best proceed with the care."
No one said that the owners shouldn't be involved, but do you know how to draw blood or obtain a stool sample? That's all wer're doing in the back. It has nothing to do with the owner's role in taking care of their pet.
"Firm believer that if one has gotten to the point where they feel bitter or disillusioned about the profession they have chosen… it is time to Move on"
Don't call us bitter and disillusioned when you haven't witnessed the countless times I had to watch an animal be put to sleep then went straight to the bathroom afterwards and bawled my eyes out. Or hugging and crying with an owner who's pet is critically ill. Or sitting with a critically ill patient for hours trying to get it to eat, talking and comforting the pet who's waking up from anesthesia. I love my job...what I get disallusioned with are the impatient, ignorant people who think that they and their pets are the only ones I'm caring for at that moment. When usually in fact I have about 10 different patients on my list of patients to be concerned about.
"and if i could have a penny for every owner who "knows" their animal and swears up and down it wont bite, as it lunges for my face with its teeth bared and growling fiercely, i would be a rich woman right now."