That just reminds me of the training I did with my GSD and boy oh boy did I love it, he recieved shutzhund 2. I spent more hours with him training, and learning. I can remember my trainer kicking a woman and her dog out because they were not at all ready for that type of training. I hope that one day I can give the same opportunity to my daughter as my parents gave to me. It takes alot of time and money for that.
I knew a couple who had a Bouvier des Flanders that was an undisplined mess, but she was a really sweet dog. There was a cop who used to come to the same park all the time and he admired that dog so much. He wanted to get one, but he had a couple of little kids and was worried about how the dog would do with the kids.
I told him that the dog we knew was a mess because that breed needed extensive obedience training. I told him that I had heard that Schutzhund was really good, really extensive training that might be good for a Bouvier.
Four years later, I'm at a community fair and there's a sign for a Schutzhund club doing demonstrations. There's my cop, grinning ear to ear with a lovely Bouvier!
He says he's lost 40 pounds, is off blood pressure medicine, all because of Schutzhund! The Bouvier he had was lovely and so well trained and he was so proud of her! All the Schutzhund dogs were like that, just happy, responsive, well-behaved dogs.
I hate to see people bashing Schutzhund, when they don't know what they are talking about. It IS hard work, but it IS a great sport--even for people who only watch.
Thanks Gunny! I have read many things on it but I had trouble finding the kind of information you gave me.Would the dog protect me in a dangerous situation?I plan on training my dog for this?Is german shepherds or doberman pinschers better for this?thanks again everyone
thank you Gunny.I have researched schutzhund but it did not give me the information that you gave me.I plan on training my dog for this.would a doberman or GSD do better in this?I have seen both breeds used for it.would the dog protect me if we were in a dangerous situation?thanks again everyone
Thanks Gunny,This was just the information I was looking for,I had researched it but nothing like that came up.I have a few other questions (sorry).I plan on training my dog in this,what breed whould do best a GSD or dobie?I have seen both breeds used for this.Also what age would you start this training?Is there an age limit on the trainer?If I were in a dangerous situation if I gave the commoand would the dog protect me,or does the person have to have a sleeve?thanks again everyone!!!
quote tessa: "Oh, and it surprises me that you have never heard of the Malinois and the Dutches!! IMO, they are superior to GSDs when it comes to that type of work"
Tessa I might be wrong but I have to disagree with you when you say that Malinos and Dutches are superior to GSD's when it comes to Schutzhund. All the research and reading that I have done so far point to the GSD. GSD's have gotten more SCH titles than any other breed. GSD's dominate in this sport, even though Malinos are very good at Schutzhund too. Malinos could be superior than GSDs on the RING (Mondio, Belgian, French) Sport which I don't know the details of it but I heard that it is a pretty rough sport that involves more of agility work.
cockerlover, i do not think you can rely on a schutzhund dog to protect you in a real life situation. you would have to assess the individual dog. i do not promote people training a dog for schutzhund for two reasons. first, it is not attack training, the dog might be biting a sleeve on a human. but that's about it. a real protection dog is trained a bit different. and second if the dog would attack and hurt someone, not matter there guilt, i guarntte if they find out the dog had schutzhund training. the training would be to blame.
as for malinois being superior over a GSD in this kind of work. I think so, The reason you see more GSD's than mal's. there more popular, and many people are intimadated by a mal. mal's defintly have the top on drive and agility. GSD's have usually have a better grip amd are heavier. but there is still much to be left to handler preference. the dutch shepard is not very popular, so it is not getting a fair shake at being judged. when there practicaly thousands of GSD's and mal's around the world and a few dutches it is a tough call. and as for mal's they are relativley a new dog to the western world. first being imported in the 1950's and the marine corp has switched primarly to mal's they are able to work longer and lighter and can be picked up more easily. there is this myth that somehow a mal you have to the special touch. and many people also just love there gsd's and do not blame them. a damn good dog.
i have GSDs ... grew up with them all my life ....we just take our dogs to obedience class and socialize them so they are not afraid ... nothing worse than a GSD who is afraid and nervous we live with our dogs inside the house .. we all sleep in the same bedroom i have never had to teach my dogs to attack .. they are naturally very protective not aggressive we just show them tons of love and they just automatically protect us .... no one can enter my house without my OK .. ... my dogs won't allow it on the other hand my dogs play with my son ... they wrestle etc... my son has pulled on their tails and sometimes hurt them accidentally when he was young and my dogs would never hurt him .. he is their puppy and still is we are a very tight pack you don't need to take your GSD to any attack or protection class in fact i am very very very cautious about those .. i would want to see tons of credentials from the trainer trust me .. if you want a guard dog and a loyal friend .. just get a GSD and love him... take him to obedience class.. and keep up with his training . i have never had my house broken into in fact people are super scared of my dogs andt hey all think we taught them to be aggressive (which is not true) .... but i tell them ok and they calm down i could never stay home alone before b/c i live int he country and it's so quiet and scary here at night but not anymore .b/c i know nothing would get past my dogs
cocker , my dad raises belgian malinois and they are really smart and obedient...supposed to be more obedient than the shepherd ... but they are super hyper even indoors my shepherds are so quiet and well behaved indoors .. you don't even know i have dogs inside my house .. unless you walk in my yard without being invited .. lol i am partial to the GSD ... they are so loyal and big babies a good GSD should have the personality of a big baby by the way ... please do not leave the GSD outside ... they are way too smart and to needy for human interaction ..... i swear my GSD is a little man
Schutzhund originated in Germany as a test for the German Shepherd Dog so that breeder could evaluate and pick only the highest quality dogs for their breeeding programs, eventually they made it a sport where other breeds could get evaluated too. Even today, no GSD can be bred in Germany without a SCH title.
Unfortunately in America we don't do that and most of the show breeders breed GSDs just for looks, and that is ruining the working ability of a real GSD.
Even in Germany there are working lines and show lines GSDs. The working line GSDs have still retained the looks, and the high drives of the very first GSDs.
So when comparing Mals and GSDs you have to look at the bloodlines of GSD as well. It's not the same as comparing Mals and American GSDs vs. Mals and German GSDs.
Mals are bred for ringsport and have some distinct advantages in size and agility because of it. People who compete in ringsport choose and train Mals.
As far as Schutzhund goes in my opinion GSDs are superior because In theory, SchH should shape the GSD, as it was designed to be a breeding suitability test for that breed. But it's been so compromised now by the showlines breeders and the AKC
hey ben weren't you the guy who told someone to get a GSD if they wanted an outside dog? if you are the same ben .. shame on you i don't know about you but my GSDs are so bonded with me they couldn't make it outside .. i think they would die gsd is so smart and so needy for human attention .. there is no way you could leave them outside .. they would go crazy they would be so lonely
I may be just a bit biased :-), but IMO the Malis really are superior to GSDs. (I've never been outside of the US,...so please note that I am talking about american dogs. Although, most of the police dogs I have watched were imported from Germany) I have watched police demos(three just in this year) and several other shcutzhund demos. You really do see tons of shepherds.
GSD- They are not as fast, partially due to their heavy bone structure. They don't hit that sleeve as hard, because they do not get up to speed like a Mali would and they usually bite from the ground. I've never see a shepherd jump off the ground to bite the sleeve. Once they have that sleeve in their mouth, it usually takes several 'realease' commands to let go.
But, they are better while in public. GSDs tend to like attention from a lot of people better than the Malis(although a good Mali should absolutely love people,...some don't get that necessary really good socialization)
Mali--They are very agile and can reach a good speed. Because of the speed and light bone adn structure, they can jump through the air with all that force behind them, and hit that sleeve.( IMO, that is amazing. Watching a Mali work gives me goosebumps )I've never seen any GSD hit as hard as a Mali. From all of the Malis I have seen working, and from talking to an experience Mali breeder/trainer/SAR person, they are more willing to listen. They are more obedient. If you tell them to do it, they tend to respond faster than the GSD. BUT,...They can be very very demanding, spastic dogs. It takes a special person to own them. I also believe the Mali to have just that much more drive. Its like a GSD on speed!
BUT, they are very demanding, spastic dogs(but I love that!) and it takes a special person/trainer to own/train them. Although they are very energetic/spastic, they should be able to settle when you tell them to. I like to think the Mali to be a bit of a mix of the border collie/GSD(not literally). A mali should have the drive and intelligence of a border collie but all the protectiveness of a GSD.
Hi Tessa, Yes I think you are right if you compare most American GSDs and Mals doing Schutzhund. Also to let you know GSDs can jump in the air and catch the sleeve, and do have a tighter grip. I am sure you will be able to find pictures of GSDs jumping in the air to catch the sleeve. I have seen many. Here is just one that I could come across right away. (Bini Gen Dor) http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/138110/page/0/fpart/9/vc/1/nt/13
I think what we are comparing here probably could not be even realistic, because it all depends on the individual personality of each dog whether it be GSD or Mal also what kind of handler they have.
" Hi GreatDane - Even though this is totally out of this topic you attack me without me saying anything to you. I think you are a very nice person (little bit uninformed about my opinion) and you treat your GSDs very well. It does not mean that everybody has to live your lifestyle. I love my GSD to death. I would give my own life protecting him just like I would for any other member of my family, but I don't treat him as a human, that does not mean I don't love him as a human. Even though my GSD spents about 80% of its time outside I do let him in occasionaly. When I bring him inside he always wants to go outside in our fenced yard. GSDs differ in personality depending on their bloodlines. Some have higher drives and some don't. I could easily say that I spent no less time with my GSD than with any other member of my family. I get up very early in the morning before I go to work and spent about an hour with him (walking, playing, feeding etc). I sometimes come from my lunches just to be with him for half an hour or so. After I come from work I spent another 2 to 4 hours with him. Sometimes we do long walks around the neighborhood, I take him for a ride to different places for socialization, we do hiking together, also most important we do training. I have him in obedience class, I have also finished kindergarten class with him. If you don't believe me look at the link below. Next I will start track training with him, which will give him much joy than I believe any other dog would get just laying around the house all day. I have him to the vet regularly, I wash him almost every week, I groom him every day, I feed him some of the most expensive foods there are out there, I tried to do everything to make him feel wanted, busy and loved. Everybody in my family says that I spent way to much time with him. I would not be able to live with myself if just for one second believed that I neglect my GSD.
I have read that many GSDs are so smart that they would be able to survive even on their own outside in the wildernes. Not many other breeds could. They would go crazy and feel lonely if they were chained or locked in a place 24/7 with nobody giving them attention, not just by being outside with all the appropriate conditions for living.
Please be more considerate of somebody elses opinion, and not be so quick to judge and insult, especially in this topic that has nothing to do with your comments. "
I do not want to get in a contest of which dog is better or which breed is better, my self do not work gsd's, but i have seen plenty of working gsd's not to many show dogs. the working german shepard is alive and well in america. but i am a memeber of the DVG an all breed schutzhund sanctioniong body and GSD's and mals, dobies and rotts all do very well against on another. even airedsales, pits and border collies are good. there are so many factors in dogs, first you have to have a good dog, then you have to be a good trainer, then you have to have a good helper. now I have seen dogs that might not have been able to compete, if was not for there trainer and helper. and i have seen bad helpers and trainers ruin great dogs. now for me the malinois is the best "i" could own for a sport. so to answewr cockers question. you would have better luck with a breed that is more inclined to do the work. but breed is a matter of prefernece. mals are handful, the craziest dogs i have ever seen, gsd's tend to have bit more problems health wise. even in the working world, and even the dogs coming out fo germany, czech, poland. not to say there are not mals with problems. rotts also are having major hip and elbow problems and dobies are having gastro-intenstinal probs. so it is up to you and your personality and what you like, and with availability. now cocker if you are looking for a good dog. i can point in the right direction for mal's as for the other breeds i am not to keen on the good breeders. now people will brag about points and pedigrees. personally this means nothing to me. pedigree is an indicator as points are to. but the fact is I want to see the dogs being breed. i want to meet them. i want to see them work. that is why i have waited for almost 2 years for my next pup. and as for schutzhund, it's expensive, you have to travel every now and again. and it is incredibly time consuming. seeing it is almost three sports in one. schutzhund was devise3d as test for GSD's. because that was the dogs they were using. but i do not see how the test is better suited for them. all the other breeds have done equally as well.
my suggestion is find some clubs if you are on the west coast i could point you in the right direction. go to them, do not listen to the trainers at first just look at the dogs. are they happy, are driven and are they afiad of the handler. now training can vary within a club and some times you get a loose cannon who refuses to use reward based training. so make sure you look at all the dogs. and remeber also, some dogs will be working and may not have the nerve yet. so if the dog is unsure, what is the handler doing is he trying to play with the dog to make the dog more confident. or he is he beating the crap out of the dog.
here is a link to beligan shepard website. i am not trying to push a mal on you, but the trainers there are from all over the world and damn good to. so maybe some of them also work with a breed you like.
i am not going to get into a contest which breed is better. that is why there are trials, to see who has the best dog.
but cocker, if you are looking for a good dog. take your time. find a good club, that has dog that are happy and have been successful, beware there are clubs who train barbaricly. so go there in mind that the club may not being training humanly. watch the dogs they never lie. also, i believe the dogs should be reward based trained. if you are on the west coast i surley could point you in the right direction, if not i do know of some good clubs around the u.s. as for finding a dog. research some breeds find some schutzhund web sites. many reccomend leerburg.com. I am not to big on leerburg. ed frawley is the guru ovehttp://webmediamusic.com/raider/forum/bw_forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=32c27c8a6c038127bea55ddedbf98374&r there.
this is a great board. some of the best post there.
cocker tessa is right about mali's a very energetic breed and also very sensitive. i own 1 and have another that was born 2 days ago on the way. if you have any questions on them i will be happy to answer any questions. i have seen and helped train quite a few now. so i have a good base and if there any questions i cannot answer i know people with much more knowledge than i do.
tessa-I do plan on getting a dog to train for schutzhund.
Gunny-I was looking mals up and was telling my dog about them,the first thing my uncle said is no way that they are hot tempered.His friends mal just turned on him and bit off his thumb.I dont believe all mals are like this beacause I have been around them many times.I do have a few questions.Are they good with kids,cats,dogs is raised with them?Will they protect our property if somthing happens?Do they drool?Are they heavy shedders (like the GSD)?Thanks