Proto I don't know who all and what it involved, I heard it on the news last night and they were really making it out to be a huge amount of money. I thought I'd heard wrong but they repeated it. I was like am I the only one that can count! But the bit about Sri Lanka just proves my point. They undoubtdly gave what they could and I thank them. But some of the others just dropped pocket change or it wouldn't take so many countrys. As far as Bush goes, I did hear that The French offered water filters and he refused. Instead they dropped pallets of water that the bottles burst on impact. I'm thankful I'm not in his shoes and I don't think America will forget what hes done or not done actually.
Thats a great idea about Building back like Venice.
And Scout your right, thats alot of $ for a salary.
This is my first post at this site, although I have "cruised" the site for some time. As such, I will apologize in advance about the length of my post. It is a topic that, as you will likely see, I feel strongly about. I find it interesting and informative, since I am a dog lover. When I read through this discussion thread, however, I was puzzled at first and rather disgusted after a period of time. I must first say that I am not from New Orleans, although I have visited, and I am not from Louisiana or Mississippi.
First of all, isn't this thread just a bit off-topic? Most discussion board tend to stick to the topic for which they were intended.
Second, does anyone honestly believe that the data to determine New Orleans is available and reliable this soon after total devastation? They are still rescuing people, or has anyone noticed? Does anyone really believe that the fate of one of the nation's oldest cities (four centuries old) should be determined by what has been reported by the media thus far? We do not have FACTS at this point. We have what the media has reported, which is typically sensationalized and negative. Do any of you work for companies that receive negative press because it SELLS? I have done so and am, as a result, skeptical when it comes to information for which my only source is the media.
Third, I am really tired of everyone wanting to talk about the price of gas or the Louisiana population that was "already not working" or "already homeless" or about how much the taxpayers are paying to help these people. A HUGE percentage of the displaced people -- if on the national average around 95% -- were working. They ARE taxpayers, and most of them pay insurance premiums. Can people think for a few minutes about what total devastation might be like? Imagine leaving your home and everything you have ever known with only the clothes on your back. You don't even know where your family members are, because you were split up during the evacuation and you have no way of contacting them. Do the LIVES of PEOPLE, American citizens and taxpayers, not matter anymore? Are gas prices and the cost to save these people more important? How selfish can we, as a people, really be?
When we were helping the Tsunami victims, was there this kind of debate on Terrific Pets? How about the many California earthquakes? Hurricanes throughout the Gulf and East Coasts? Tornadoes ravaging the mid-west? Fires in the mid-west? Etcetera. What is different about a Level 5 hurricane wiping out an entire American city and displacing its entire population, or at least those who survived? Do we tell people they should not live in California, because there is a high likelihood of earthquakes? Do we tell people they should not live in the mid-west because there is a high likelihood of tornadoes? What business do we have saying that New Orleans should not be rebuilt because of the high likelihood of hurricanes? I would be interested in having REAL scientific data comparing the odds of a major earthquake in California to the odds of a Level 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans.
After the Great Hurricane of 1780, the Virgin Islands most decidedly recovered. After the Level 4 hurricane that wiped out Galveston, Texas in 1900, the city rebuilt and has thrived. The decision about what should be done about New Orleans is, first of all, not ours to make. Secondly, it is unquestionably premature to even be talking about it. Thirdly, valuing gasoline and taxes more highly than the lives of our fellow citizens and taxpayers one of the most ridiculous and selfish things I have ever heard of.
Scout, you are a Moderator. If I had posted this topic, I wonder if you would’ve told me that this is a site for discussing Terrific Pets. I’m thinking that you would’ve done so. Wherever you live, it is obviously not New Orleans. After all, you seem to have plenty if time and energy to quote what you have “heard” and opinions as well as your “vote” – while survivors are still being recovered and people are still dying – not to rebuild the city in its previous location. Nothing in life is guaranteed, and there is most definitely no guarantee that this won’t happen again (or earthquakes, fires, tornadoes, floods, etc.). People who feel free to discuss what should happen in the futures of people whose lives have been totally devastated, based on rumors, hearsay, opinion, and media coverage, must not have much to do, or they must thrive on negativity. Maybe we should (myself included) spend some time helping our neighbors, if not the victims of Hurricane Katrina, or our own families or communities and spend less time needlessly debating a topic which we know little to nothing about. Just my two cents worth.
2nd> I never made any *decision* for the people who were hit by this horrid event.
3rd >The Tsunami Was Not On American Soil… But did effect our economy .. true.. that is Probably why it was not discussed.
4th> It is entirely appropriate TO discuss Taxes and Expense..... Because It WILL Effect Us all… Especially the Individuals ALREADY Struggling to Survive… Thus making a horrid event … Worse … Because MORE individuals will be Unable to afford cars to Leave a city If a events happens that would require Evacuation… on and on....
5th> the Data I have posted has been Hours upon hours of research, from web to radio to the TV news… as well a my own personal knowledge of the hazardous situation and the Construction Industry. ( while true… to trust all is foolish… but at this point … all has not been said… so it is a discussion among the people… something by way of our Constitution is ALLOWED )
6th> I myself have Packed over 300 Care packages … For families of the Hurricane .. ( at my own expense)
True… events we have been through may not even touch upon what has happened to the people of the Gulf or any other natural disaster … so we may not know how it feels.
This Horrible Tragedy has effected us all In many ways… many very deeply
** The 400,000.00 salary for the Red Cross… is warranted because of what cooperate American in the norm receives… is More…. they will work for that amount because they care….
Gee wiz ….Teacher’s from elementary to High School … Make from 18,000.00 to 48,000.00 a year! “”On the norm.”” And they have our Nations Children In hand… They care and receive a whole LOT less in yearly income
***Edited By: IVYdragonn on 9/10/2005 1:05:04 AM*** Reason: addition of
I was writing my previous post when the discussion of the salary of the Red Cross CEO's salary started. Again, I must cry "sensationalism." Do you realize that the Red Cross is a multi-billion dollar organization? The Red Cross has an annual operating budget of $3.4 billion. It assisted in 70,000 disasters last year. Compare that to a corporate job, where they sell a product and provide a suitable return to their shareholders. Do you think there is any corporate CEO in a similar position who would work for $400,000/year total compensation. Well, they won't. Check the annual CEO compensation reports in Forbes and Fortune Magazines. They are running companies and answer to shareholders. The Red Cross is involved in disasters and responds to all funding organizations. It is a much tougher job than running most corporations, yet the compensation is much lower. I would assert that she does it because she wants to make a difference, not that she is getting rich.
oh, i think people have opinions and can express them, all sides. i like hearing what people think no matter what. but psych things and how people think interest me a lot. there's nothing that says the people posting on this thread have not done a lot to help. we just don't announce it. i'm sure new orleans will eventually be rebuilt. but it's going to take years and years and years the way things work. all the talk, and decisions, and planning, are going to take forever. also, yes scout started the thread, but none of us other mods have deleted it.
***Edited By: pearl on 9/9/2005 11:29:53 PM*** Reason: x
When we were helping the Tsunami victims, was there this kind of debate on Terrific Pets?
actually, yes there was. quite a heated debate as i remember it.
Do we tell people they should not live in California, because there is a high likelihood of earthquakes? Do we tell people they should not live in the mid-west because there is a high likelihood of tornadoes?
no one can tell anyone where they should or should not live. but if you are going to build your home on a fault line, or below sea level as it pertains to this discussion, you should do so knowing the risks.
Do the LIVES of PEOPLE, American citizens and taxpayers, not matter anymore? Are gas prices and the cost to save these people more important? How selfish can we, as a people, really be? .....valuing gasoline and taxes more highly than the lives of our fellow citizens and taxpayers one of the most ridiculous and selfish things I have ever heard of.
the lives of people should matter a great deal. and this discussion is not about the lives of those people. no one is questioning whether or not to save them, the question was whether to rebuild in a city that was already in a questionable area. it is not too early to be discussing it. whenever there is a disaster somewhere one of the first things that pops in to peoples minds is the rebuilding. this is not only being discussed here on this forum. it is being discussed on all sorts of forums throughout the internet and in peoples daily lives.
you cannot get mad or judge people for expressing their views on costs of gas and say that means they have little regard for the people this has affected when this countries own health care system makes those judgements everyday. how many people in this country are denied adequate care or medications because of the costs ? the fact that insurance companies will not pay for the expensive meds, or okay them for a short term because f the expense ? and those are the people who have insurance. how about those who dont who get denied care, or charged double to triple what insured people get charged so that the doctor or hospital can make up the difference for what the insurance companies dont allow ? the selfishness doesnt start with those people who have very real concerns about how this will effect them financially and it wont end with them either. this country is all about money. had it not been about money, then maybe the levy that was supposed to protect the people of new orleans would have been repaired in the first place, thus preventing or limiting the amount of damage to that area. the government didnt want to pay a little then so they are going to pay alot now. unfortunately that paying alot is going to trickle down on to the tax payers, to some who cannot afford it.
it is about survival, not only for the people directly affected but for the rest of the country also. why should someone be made to feel guilty for caring about their own survival or that of their family ? does the lion worry about the mother of the young antelope it just killed to feed its family ?
this country has an all about me attitude. largely because it has to be that way for alot of people and largely because some people just suck. but it doesnt make the ones who are less fortunate and cant do....selfish.
Maybe we should (myself included) spend some time helping our neighbors, if not the victims of Hurricane Katrina, or our own families or communities
just because people arent broadcasting what they are doing does not mean they arent doing anything. some of us dont need to toot our own horn and get approval from others to know that what we are doing is worthy.
Scout, you are a Moderator. If I had posted this topic, I wonder if you would’ve told me that this is a site for discussing Terrific Pets. I’m thinking that you would’ve done so.
thats were you are dead wrong. a disaster of this magnitude needs to be discussed. it is on the minds of many people. if someone needs to speak out on it I AM ALL FOR LEAVING IT UP. apparently i am not the only one since it has remained up. and as long as it is still being discussed without a war breaking out, i for one will allow it to remain and any others that are discussed peaceably.
The Red Cross is involved in disasters and responds to all funding organizations. It is a much tougher job than running most corporations, yet the compensation is much lower. I would assert that she does it because she wants to make a difference, not that she is getting rich.
what someone gets paid for their job is relative. i personally dont feel that actors, actresses and athletes should be paid the outrageous salaries they get paid. someone apparently does or they wouldnt be paid what they get paid. so reasoning that this person is paid a fair salary is just an opinion and not really a fact. ditto ivy about teachers salaries. it boggles my mind how people who are responsible for cultivating our future leaders of the country thru education get paid a ridiculously low salary compared to those that provide entertainment.
anyway i have said pretty much all i can say on this subject. i wont argue with another over their opinions and what they feel about things. as no one will change my mind and i have no doubt i wont change others minds. just throwing out my opinion for what it is worth. whether someone agrees with it or not doesnt matter to me.
***Edited By: Scout1 on 9/10/2005 9:21:30 AM*** Reason: add
Proud American, its clear that you are not a new member who has been silent until now, you are an old member with a bone to pick with scout, so why not admit it. Your opinions on the subject are valid, but your B***ing about who is breaking what rule is kind of irksome and redundant. If you don't like it, dont read.
And whats wrong with having a discussion with all points of view expressed? I though that was what America was about.
Proto, thanks for your input. Its helpful to hear from someone who is there. I hope they rebuild. Yeah, it sounds like it makes sense to give it up, but that means that landowners lose their land. If they are forced to relocate, they start from scratch with no money or land. Where will everyone go? . I wouldn't want to do that if it were me.
They say that New York, believe it or not, is destined for a major hurricane. Statisticly, its only a matter of time. Should the whole city abandoned their land and move because of a potential threat? All coastal communities face the same problems, some more than others, but they are still going strong.
***Edited By: lalayla on 9/10/2005 2:08:47 AM*** Reason: add
I lived in New Orleans, and everything I had, including my job, is gone, so other than obsessively watching the news, I really don't have anything better to do than to talk about this stuff. I very much want to go home but not if the soil is uber-toxic. I am enjoying this discussion. There will be significant costs to rebuild, but there will also be costs if the city isn't rebuilt, and we don't yet know how the math will shake out.
I think it's possible for posters to be both concerned about the victims of the storm and about how they're going to take care of their own families.
Proto, so happy that you managed t make it out alive, but saddened by your loses as well as those of all the others effected by this catastrophe.
Proud American, under normal circumstances, yes, non-pet or forum related threads would be dleted. Though most of the mods just pop into those threads, usually "catching up" posts, not posted for trouble and ask the poster to mention their pet.
The no off topic rule was implemented because there was a period of time that ONLY off topic posts seem to be on the opening page.
Since this topic pertains to human AND animal life as well as to many of our forum members and their families, it is (in the strictest sense of the word) also forum related.
In truth, as a mental health care professional, you should realize that MANY are suffering from trauma, shock and post traumatic stress...simply from hearing the new reports and seeing the images and trying to rationalize something that can NOT be rationalized. Many are suffering from clinical depression and are not even aware how deeply this has effected them.
Perhaps having the opportunity to discuss it here, among on-line frineds will help some work through it.
If someone got burned in the past on this site what is the point of making yourself look like a moron by making up 500 names and coming back to start fights with them, it seems to happen alot when the mods try and post something "off topic" to the trolls likings.
Seriously if the internet bothers you that much people, I think you need a hobby.
I happened to think that this is very on topic. There are animals trapped in New Orleans as well, and this is our Country isn't it? It's not like this was a post about what kind of toothpastes we all use.
Permanent European settlement was begun by France almost 200 years after the Spanish had entered the area. Robert Cavelier, Sieur de La Salle, explored the Mississippi downstream to its mouth, and he claimed the entire drainage basin for France in 1682. La Salle's efforts at colonization failed, but the French continued in their attempt to establish a permanent settlement. Eventually, the colony, which had also failed at BILOXI, moved upstream on the Mississippi to the foot of the Great Raft on the Red River, establishing the first permanent settlement in the Louisiana Territory at Natchitoches in 1714.
During the War-Of-1812, British ships moved up the Mississippi River to New Orleans. On Jan. 8, 1815, Gen. Andrew Jackson's troops defeated the British at New Orleans. The battle ended 15 days after the Treaty of Ghent was signed, ending the war. Jean LAFITTE aided the American cause
Most of the older buildings of the French Quarter are actually Spanish. Following a devastating fire in 1788 the Spanish government rebuilt much of New Orleans in their native country's architectural style.
Louisiana is America's second largest producer of natural gas. It supplies one-third of the total U.S. production.
Baton Rouge was the site of the only battle fought outside of the original 13 colonies during the American Revolution. On September 21, 1779, forces friendly to the American side captured Baton Rouge from the British.
Avery Island's salt mine was discovered in 1862, making it the oldest in the Western Hemisphere.
Louisiana is the largest producer of oysters in the United States. The total impact of this fishery to Louisiana's economy is estimated to be 170 million dollars.
Louisiana is the nation's largest handler of grain for export to world markets. More than 40 percent of the U.S. grain exports move through Louisiana ports.
Louisiana contains forty-one percent of the coastal marshlands in the U.S. Louisiana leads the nation in the production of crawfish with approximately 100 million pounds of crawfish per year. About half of the production comes from the Atchafalaya Basin and half from an extensive aquaculture system which involves some 135,000 acres of ponds throughout the state.
Bottom line IMO? It took nearly 200 years to really establish New Orleans. A decade to reclaim, while frightening, is nothig to this old city, which has earned it's right to be re-built and the population which deserve to see it rise once again.