Thanks Rhonda. I don't think I would have volunteered at the shelter if I hadn't visited this forum. I know that some people here are angry and can be nasty but I think they are just frustrated. I can empathize. Before I visited this site I didn't know much about good breeders and bad breeders. I never even knew petfinder.com existed. I got involved with fostering by visting petfinder.com and I learned about petfinder.com fromt his website. I think we should inform many people out there about byb and puppymills believe it or not some people have no clue. I believe that the next time someone brings up designer mutts or byb we should tell them nicely about how horrible byb and puppymills are. Show them pictures of unwanted dogs in pounds tell them horror stories. We should not yell at them -- they will be more willing to listen if we speak using kinder words. Spit out facts not rude comments. I know many of you feel strongly about byb, designer mutts etc but it's not an excuse to be rude and nasty. I too feel bad for all the unwanted shelter animals but people should donate time or money, educate others not spew hate.
***Edited By: lovedoggies on 9/12/2005 9:27:27 PM*** Reason: add
Hi, Just a different opinion. I have two small children. My son has allergies to dogs. So I need a non allergic dog and I want a puupy that I can raise accustomed to children. I do not feel comfortable with a older dog , as i am concerned about how they might react to children. I can not get a mixed breed that might have a lot of dander. We looked for breeds and many of them were so expensive from supposedly top notch breeders. We got a goldendoodle for $ 400.00. Is a sweetheart. i do not know what you consider a BYB , but sometimes that is what is affordable. We always had puppys from the pund when I was a child, but unable to do that now. You have to understand , different situations require different needs in a dog.
Judy I guess you are not very familiar with dogs and their behavior. You don't have to grow up with them to know if they are aggressive. I took in a shih tzu because she was dumped. She is not a puppy either. She is very sweet, gentle, and has a great disposition. You can tell these things by handling the dog . They do let you play and interact withthe dogs before you adopt them, just ask the people at the pound. If you go to a rescue facility a lot of these dogs have lived in foster homes with children big and small. The foster moms evaluate the dogs and recommend whether or not they should be placed in homes with kids. Pay attention to the recommendation, if they say the dog is good with kids then maybe you should consider that dog. There are many dogs that shed very little. There is no such thing as non-shedding dog. Shih tzu, poodles etc hardly shed. FYI there are tons of shih tzu, poodle rescues and definitely a lot of designer mutt rescues. Start by going to petfinder.com or google it. My friend wanted a puppy so I actually tried looking for rescued puppies online, to my surprise there are tons out there rescued from puppymills or some are turned in by owners who had no idea the trouble of having a puppy. Dogs from puppymills and BYB are not bad. People who are BYB and people who own puppymills are the problem not the dogs.
Hi there, I've been reading the drama that your two threads have stirred up but I'm curious, did you used to go by a different user name?? Just curious because you state how much this site has helped make decisions and volunteer at a shelter, etc. but yet you just joined on the 11th?? Not trying to be cynical, just curious is all. Thanks
I am not trying to stir drama as you call it or start trouble. My goal was to help others like me. My comment about the negativity was honest and sincere. I did not appreciate the negativity and frankly I have read some other threads where people rip each other apart and make things personal. I was hoping it would open some peoples eyes.
Lovedoggie, I realize that a goldendoodle is not a pure breed, I do not care if a dog is a pure breed or a mix, I just need to know its background if you read my post to tell if it would be allergic. I also feel more comfortable with a dog that I have raised with children. In addition, my children enjoy the fun stage of a puppy. I am aware of the situation with shelters, I am just saying not everyone's situation allows for adopting a recued animal.
Like I said, I wasn't being cynical, just curious is all. I don't post much either, I'm more of a lurker, that's why I was asking if you used a different used name previously. Yes you can just come on in and observe without signing up. sheesh......
I totally agree with Icy - my point was not to give the puppy away. I sell my puppies for $500 on a spay/neuter contract - I keep the price low because I feel my families are also commiting to the spay/neuter price (cost of surgery) as well. In places like New York and Seattle that can be as much as an additional $250 depending the vet and the area. Most of my families do have to save to come up with $600-700 and to be positive they can afford food, heartworm preventative, toys, vet care, ect... In the midwest, where the cost of living is lower, $500 is a lot of money and it covers what it costs me to raise the litter (again in the midwest where it's a bit cheaper).
My point was that by saying if you have more than one litter a year that you are a BYB I think you're lumping a whole bunch of breeders into a category that they don't belong in. Maybe we need to create a new category?
And adopting for the shelter is not always a great option either, truthfully. I have a shelter dog that came with about $2500 dollars in vet bills in the first 2 years. I could have bought one heck of a puppy from a show breeder for that. Most people go to a breeder for a healthy, well socialized puppy.
My main point in my post was that I personally feel that too many "hobby breeders" actually make breeding a hobby. They don't understand 100% the importance of hands on with their litter and they aren't prepared to spend the time that someone who is looking at it as a "professional" (and I agree that professional should be expert - NOT job) would. I don't ever consider my dogs my main source of income - otherwise I would be eating the dog food with them as it would be all I could afford, and sleeping in the whelping box too. But I do have more than one litter a year and I don't breed solely to produce the next champion. I'll place every puppy in a litter on a spay/neuter contract before I put a puppy in a show/breeding home. My personal choice. I'd rather see the dog as a pet than a trophy (and I am in no way saying that everyone who shows views their dogs as trophy's - but I think too many of them do as they don't have a problem selling them if their bite goes off - for example).
I hate the way people make BYB include anyone who isn't a "one litter breeder" and anyone who isn't a true Puppy Mill. Like I said, maybe we need another category?
I never said breeding dogs is unethical. You are putting words in my mouth. I said and I quote "Creating more lives to make a buck is wrong. A lot of things are legal yet they are immoral" If your main goal in breeding dogs is to make a profit then you have no shame. Of course you have to sell your puppies, it costs money to raise a litter or pups. But if your main goal is to make money and not to enhance the breed then yes I do believe it is unethical. Your priorities would be all wrong. I could easily get a few toy breeds and breed them all the time . I could make a lot of money like others do but I would not be able to sleep at night because I know that I am just contributing to the pet overpopulation. I never said all breeders are bad but one should do their homework before breeding. Don't just breed because you need to make extra cash. If you need to make more money get a freakin job for goodness sake.
Lovemydog, I don't think any breeders here on TP that I have seen post, breed just for the money. I know that there are some that do and thats a very sad problem to be sure! I do however think that most breeders here on TP would strongly disagree that having more than 1 litter per year makes a person a BYB. Thats your opinion and you have a right to it. Does not mean your are correct. BYB means different things to different people I guess. I'm glad you find it rewarding working at a shelter, I did too! Sorry your dog has many medical problems ( I'm guessing by the cost of your vet bills). Things can happen with any live animal, shelter or breeder, it's a shame that it happened to you.
Judy, I'm glad you and your family have a great dog.
If you have been hanging around for a while and reading what has been being said, you should know this conversation has been had over and over again.
I'm glad to see that your eyes were opened and that can be a powerful thing but the truth is people are not going to learn unless they feel like it. Senior members get sick of seeing the same old arguements again and again.
The way things are done around here is people are usually educated in a tactful way, not by attacking them and shoving the info down their throats.
As you can see a few people posted "what is a puppymill" and the question was answered in a polite way.
Alot of people do not know about a proper diet, training, pet over popluation it's not a crime to not be educated. You can never learn too much, but you can feel like you are being force fed and some people do not respond well to a "know it all" attitude.
I never said the breeders on TP are BYB. First of all I don't know them and I have never been to their homes. I can't say they are BYB and I can't say they are not. Without proof who can say. I said one of the criteria is a person who breeds more than one litter a year. But there are other circumstances too. 1. No genetic testing 2. Not conforming to breed standards 3. No spay/neuter contract 4. Breeding dogs just because you want to make money etc
If you meet a MAJORITY of those things then yes you are a BYB. Answering yes to one doesn't make you a BYB .
***Edited By: lovedoggies on 9/14/2005 12:53:23 AM*** Reason: typo
loves doggies, I don't have to put words in your mouth when I can copy and paste, Read for yourself:
People shouldn't make money from selling puppies IMO. I know it's legal but it is not ethical There is a pet overpopulation, pounds are filled with unwanted pets. Dozens of dogs are put down everyday. Creating more lives to make a buck is wrong. A lot of things are legal yet they are immoral.
your starting to trip so maybe you should take a minute to breath and consider playing nice.
Anyone can copy and paste but you can also take people's words out of context.
"People shouldn't make money from selling puppies IMO. I know it's legal but it is not ethical There is a pet overpopulation, pounds are filled with unwanted pets. Dozens of dogs are put down everyday. Creating more lives to make a buck is wrong. A lot of things are legal yet they are immoral. I never lumped all breeders together. I said there is a checklist and if you happen to say yes to the majority of the criteria then you are a byb. Puppymills and BYB are not the same that is why I said puppymils AND BYB if they were interchangeable I would say or instead of and. Legitimate and responsible breeders, breed to the standard and follow rules set by their club. They usually dont' breed their dogs unless they have won several awards. They usually do not breed their dogs more than once a year. They do their homework so to speak. Due to all the testing, fees, legitimate breeders hardly make a dime from the sale of puppies. They also require spay/neuter contracts and they give health guarantees. They also take unwanted puppies /dogs back. "
I believe the person is saying that legitimate breeders do not make a lot of money from the sale of puppies. Money is not their driving force. Lynda I think you are here only to stir trouble. Lynda do you support BYB and puppymills?