all suggestions would be appreciated.

desperate mommy

I'm new to training and disciplining dogs. I've had cats all my life and there's like not really comparing the two lol. But with disclipline my pup.. I always try a very stern "no" at first, then if that doesn't work I'll take something away from him. If he still doesn't behave I will resort to putting him in the bedroom for a few mins still with a firm "no" right after whatever he's done.

stand them in the corner !! j/k . i dont believe in hitting them. usually just raising my voice in a firm no ! and showing them what they were being scolded for worked for me. some people put them in their crate when they are bad babies, but i never crated mine. when i used to catch them chewing on anything other than their toys , i would get ahold of them and put them in front on the item and say no in a firm voice. if they continued with it , they got a time out in the bathroom for a short time. usually 5 or ten minutes as pups forget very fast, what they are being scolded for.

Tsion is far to smart, smarter than me. I put him in the crate so I could vacuum. Well it made him mad. He was only in there 10 min. When I took him out we went out and walked so we could do the poop thing. Came back in and he went over by the coffee table and pooped. I'm certain he did it b/c he was mad about the crate. He is house broke and I've noticed that the occasional accident just happens when he is mad at me! help me I'm being manipulated!

I use the Firm NO! too. Or the Look~ and they do really well with it.
don't know what else to say to help ~

thanks guys!

Discpline is probably the biggest issue, i have wrestled with as a dog trainer. The answer I am at now is there is defintly no hard fast rules for dogs. I was a huge believer at first in the "dominace" theory. bascially I tried to justify all my dogs behavior as a dominace or submissive issue. I believe there are issues of domince in dogs. The dominace theory can be a dangerous one. for it gives one option, figure out how to put the dog in it's place. There are some instances when it is necassary but these are rare. So when do i discpline? to understand when I must know what obedince is. During formal training the only rule i really have is pay attention. Before I apply discpline I am sure I have given the dog sufficcient motivation to pay attention, lots of play and treats just for fun. I the sun of that dog's world. I am the bringer of everything good. This is easiest to establish in pups. but can be given to older dogs. So, if a dog is straing at me, ears up, intent and i say sit. and nothing happens, the dog to me in a sense is being obedient. I have not communicated clearly enough what "Sit" means. Some people will say my dog knows what it means, he is just stubborn. I say not so. Dogs are like special needs children and you are teaching them another language. sometimes they forget or have brain farts. so what do you do? well calmly i say no or ah ah in very soft voice. this is called the no reward marker. when they do it correctly i say, "good" in pleasent calm voice. this is called the reward marker. I will treat while saying this at first. later after a "reward history" has been established I will fade rewarding with good. I wil just say good. now i will introduce a new marker. "okay" this is now when i will reward. okay, then rewrad. okay marks the end of the behavior. I never want to make rewarding a bad thing and i want to be quick on timing. so what do dogs do when they see a treat or a ball after given a command. they will break the commmand. that is what okay is for. letting them no it is okay to break the command and her eis your treat. now with "good" at this point I will vary how many goods get an "okay" This makes a dog become like a gambling addict at a slot machine. never knowing when the machine is going to pay out.

Now as for discpline outside training like barking or tearing something up. I will walk over and grab the dogs scruff and shake it and say "no, don't that." or sometimes i just say no, you don't do that."
as for just saying no! i think it provides a key element. it suprises the dog and gets there attention. but the rest of the message does not get communicated, that you are displeased and are upset. no in itself, causes excitment. people ask me why i talk to ym dogs as if they were people. it insures my body posture and tone clearly communicate the idea. where as yelling there name or saying no, just causes excitment.

as for pinch collars, and e-collars. i do not use those as discpline. it works but makes a flat and scared dog. the dog will soon realize the device is for punishment and everytime it is put on, will klnow sooner or later it will be used. so how do i use a collars. well i only use pinch collars and e-collars. at first i will put the collar everytime the dog plays ball or trains and promptly remove it after. now the collar is classicly condition to the dog. collar=means fun.
I will do this for months. after a while i will put a 8"piece of leash on it. and walk my dog. if the dog does, let say does not drop the ball when i ask, i will give series of small checks on the collars. very light. like pullng on lamp cord to turn it on. when the dog drps it the collar stops. abd then comes a reward this type of training is called ne po po, negative, positive, positive, the collar check, - the collar stops+ the reward +.


just to add. dogs are not vidictive spiteful animals tey do not plot revenge. a dog that poops in th ehouse had an accident, nothing more. the whole vengeful pup idea is dangerous.

***Edited By: gunny on 9/12/2005 11:37:43 PM***
Reason: f

I think you have to be careful of placing human reasoning behind why a dog does something. You can't really scold a dog for something unless you catch them in the act. Putting them in their crate should never be punishment. That should be their happy secure place. And I don't believe your dog pooped because he was mad, he just doesn't completely understand the house rules yet. Keep working with him. Make sure you give plenty of time outside. I've learned to recognize the way Jada's butt looks right before she's going to poop. (lol, i know that sounds gross!) You might try keeping a record of the time of day when he does poop so that you can anticipate when he might need to poop. Jada goes at pretty much the same time every day (in the mornings when we walk and sometimes early evening after she's eaten). Dogs don't reason the way we do. It sounds bad but I think its true that dogs are a input/out put machine. In other words what reaction does this behavior receive? Dog thinks, if I jump on mom what happens? If mom responds by loving and kissing and oohing dog remembers and continues behavior. But if mom says, no and shows them off and only pets and oohs when dog sits, dog eventually learns to sit when they greet you. But this all takes repetition. Same with house training. If dog poops in house and gets no attention or positive reward and mom shows him the correct behavior, and praises enthusiastically for it the dog eventually learns the correct behavior. Always be consistant and never scold the dog for something that they haven't been taught. If they keep doing an undesired behavior keep showing him over and over what you want. Then when he starts doing it on his own consistantly when he breaks the rules, that's when scolding comes to play.

very informative gunny, thanks I am going to look into some training classes soon. However I can tell he is being naughty b/c he was mad. I yelled at him and smacked his but once (not hard) he has been ever so repetitive since but I don't really want to use smacks to punish. The scruff idea sounds helpful. BTW you really put this in my language lol as working with the dd is what I do and you are right it takes longer to process. T/Y

thanks ginger. No I don't use the crate to punish. I had him in it to vacuum. So he doesn't chase the vacuum and I can get done.

Gunny-I 100% agree with you that dogs are not "vindictive" and don't do things "out of spite".
I think too many people give their dogs human characteristics that just aren't valid.

gunny you say it much better than I! lol! i'm in total aggreement here. I was taught these methods by a good friend who's a prof. trainer and I think they work well. My dog is far from perfect but she's not "flat" like you said. She's enthusiastic about life and learing. I use the clicker as a marker. But I also use the word "wrong" to mark undesired behavior.

Gunny
That is some of the best training advice I have seen given on any of these sites!
And I agree about the "alpha "dog thing, it is a total mistake to try to train dogs using this philosophy. I eve got permission to reprint on my site several article (by pro trainers) that agree with your methods.

I have to agree with most of what Gunny said earlier in his post epcept this part and I will explain.....

just to add. dogs are not vidictive spiteful animals tey do not plot revenge. a dog that poops in th ehouse had an accident, nothing more. the whole vengeful pup idea is dangerous

As you all know I have a Min. Schnauzer --

When we first got Sasha my son then 12 would aggravate the snot out of her. And every day she would sneak upstairs and poop under his bed. Soon this became a BIG pain... So I bought a baby gate and that should have fixed the problem -- NO instead she starts pooping at the bottom of the stair case. Right in the spot where you step over so that if you are not watching -- you got it poop between your toes... ( my sons room was the only room up stairs.) I finally got that to stop...

About 2 years ago we built a new home....All of a sudden Sasha starts peeing on every new rug I have. I did my research to find out that some of the chemicals used in rubber backed rugs -- omits an odor similuar to when a dog markes its teratory. So I didsmissed that soon . After I washed all the rugs a few times she quit....

Any way in the past couple of months Sasha has started pooping in My sons room again.. not all the time but if he ever aggravates her .. she'll poop... And If I happen to be in the living room when she comes out of his room she flattens out her ears and ducks her nub (tail) She know she is in trouble.... One time she even pooped in his tub... YUCK...

I know what you said Gunny, But I swear it really seems like she plans to do it..

Oviously Thylinda I am no help Just had a story to tell....

Well my puppies always grow up thinking their names are NO NO.

LOL!


But when I CORRECT them I usally put them in their crate or playpen or let them out the back door. I am so mean LOL!

If they think they are in trouble with my voice raised, their crate is the first thing they head for.


But my dogs have no behavior problems they have scheduals they stick to and they dont know any different so I have very few accidents in my house. Other then ROSCO RIGHT NOW! @_@


I have noticed they have been getting on my bed when I leave the house though. When my poodle peanut died she left behind her favorite teddy bear. I noticed penny had it in HER Crate today, because the bear has been on my bed's headboard for 3 yrs ever sense peanut died and today was the first time I found it in another spot sense peanut died.

So they will be put in their crates yet again from now on when I leave the house.




***Edited By: peanutmypoodle on 9/14/2005 1:10:40 AM***
Reason: *

thanks lovesschnauzers,
I no exactly what you refer to lol. I think its the human side of the breed. Quick update tho, when he wanted out last night he brought me the leash! He is definitely the smartest dog I've ever had.

I had a hard time training my puppy everything I tried he thought I was playing with him, the vet told me to put some beans in a coffee can and shake it when he does something wrong. That got quite annoying so I tried using a water bottle, I would spray him and tell him no, it worked quite well. Now all I have is tell him no and he will stop to avoid being sprayed.

Sorry, I would never use a water bottle to spray teacup with .''SHAME'' on the DR. for telling you this . that only would frighten the little thing. I would'nt want teacup to be afraid of water, while bathing him.

I too tried that spray water trick and it backfired on me. My cats it works fine on, but my dog it doesn't. She LOVES water and will think I am playing with her and she chases the streams of water coming at her. I have now started using the "NO, naughty" when she is doing something wrong and she hates that. She will stop whatever it is that she is doing wrong and sit and look at me with those pitiful eyes telling me sorry. How can you be mad at that?? It is hard, but she knows when she is in trouble.

Most of mine would love to get the water bottle!, lol We choose not to use that method because we dont want them afraid of it, we show and use spray bottles to mist and help keep them cool, so thats not an option for us.