I was wondering if I could get some honest arguements for mixing dogs for health reasons. (i.e. mixing with poodles because of allergies)
I am not trying trying to stir the pot on the mix breeding debate. I am just trying to hear some legitimate reasons why this should not be done. I understand the health testing and temperment testing, but I also understand that all breeders, even pure bred breeders, should do this. So let's not use that excuse.
This is also not a debate about breeding and bringing more unwanted puppies in the world.....I am really curious about the issue if all the guidelines of good breeding are followed, why is it so bad.
Please can we keep this a friendly debate. This is a legitimate question and it could actually provide people with good insight and help them to make an educated decision.
that's a good question you asked ,i hope who ever answer your question , would be nice.we don't know these answers unless we ask's although i can't answer it b/c , i don't know myself.so whoever answers i hope it someone who's intelligence.
I know the labradoodle was bred initially because people wanted a service dog that would not shed. Labs, although, great service dogs do shed quite a bit and people with allergies could not have lab service dogs. To produce a hypoallergenic dog that was suitable for people with allergies to fur and dander they created the labradoodle which a cross between a lab and a poodle. I think this reason sounds legitimate.
This is a condensed verson of a post in another forum - it was one of the better explanations I have read:
------------------------------------------------- • more than likely you are starting with what are probably indifferent dogs not bred for health or quality in their own lines
• While you may reduce the chances some specific genetic conditions which are more Prevalent in one breed you may be introducing a genetic condition(s) which are not normally found in the other breed (and vise versa)
With recessive diseases or conditions that require more than one gene – mixed breeds may have a reduced chance of inheriting these conditions – however, the genes will be re-concentrated if the mixed breeds are bred back to mixed breeds. ------------------------------------------------------
True Loving, Legit reason, but they didn't succeed.
Standard poodles make excellent working dogs for the blind, deaf, or disabled as it is, and the lab x poodle cross wasn't able to be bred out to be shedless. Some of the dogs are.. but it isn't even 50/50, because you'll get dogs that shed lighter, heavier, and none. So if the ones who prove to be shedless are the only ones you are looking for, the percentage that also have the correct temperment and personality to work is even less. There are some devoted cockapoo and labradoodle breeders that are still trying ot succeed in creatign a breed that breeds true with all the good characteristics, but they aren't getting close even still.
To the OP. it isn't stirring the pot, it's curiosity. Breeders of mixed breeds, the bad ones, like to tote hybid vigor. Which is true in crossing species, not true in mixing breeds. As the post above me said often it's a dog of questionable heritage.
If you created a breeding program to change a charateristic in a dog like breeds with breeding problems, and had a clar cut goal, it is worth something, but technically, you could just find healthier dogs within a breed with fewer problems and work from there instead.
I am going to be adopting a shih-poo puppy from a breeders next litter. This a good breeder of AKC registered Shih-tzu's and Poodles. Both animals are show quality and have been checked for any health or genetic issues. I see alot of comments on here about how alot of you don't like to hear about these mix-breed dogs. I know there are some bad breeders out there that probably are doing it just for the money and not breeding healthy, sound animals. However, this is not always the case. My breeder is breeding her dogs because some of us want the best of both world's. I like the shih-tzu because of it's beauty and it's wonderful temperament. I also, like the poodle because of it's intelligence. With this breeding of a shih-tzu and a Poodle you I am able to enjoy both of these aspects in my new puppy ( and yes, I do realize that I am not guaranteed that my puppy will be exactly like it's mother or father - no one can guarantee that even with a pure bred puppy). I don't agree however in breeders charging $600 and up for these puppies. Since they are not an actual certified breed I do not think that is right. I am certainly not paying anywhere near that for mine. I just think we shouldn't lump all of these Poo mixes into one big category and say that they are "bad". Some of them have been bred by good breeders who care for them and the dog's they are breeding just like any other good breeder would.
Ok, Shipoo, how do you know these parents are "show quality? I am not saying they aren't, I just find myself doubting, as lots of people claim that dogs are, when in fact, they AREN'T. Now, if they are AKC or UKC Ch.s' or something, let me know.
I have a good example here. I have a female sired by Ch. Shadow Hill's Air Force One. He represented the Shetland Sheepdog at the Westminster Dog Show (yes, THE Westminster dog show- google the dog's name if you doubt.) She has a full white collar. Is she show quality? One might think she's a sure bet, right? I mean, daddy went to Westminster and momma is a show dog, the product of another champion dog bred to a champion female, so my girl is no doubt show quality?
She is not. She just isn't, and there is a long list of reasons why. She is too small despite being technically "insize" at 13 and 1/2 inches, she does not have enough muzzle or bone, she has a round eye and a domey topskull. And one stubbornly upright ear. The way I know this is that I have spent long years learning the Shetland Sheepdog standard, and what the standard means when it says what it says.
What you run into with many of the mix breeders is that the two parents are of abominable quality- I mean, dogs that you could not give me because they have issues that will mean vet bills in the future- bite problems, structural problems that lead to arthritis or excessive stiffness in old age, inherited tendencies that might even be dominate genes so if the pup inherits that dominate gene it doesn't matter WHAT it is mixed with, that gene is going to express itself as whatever problem, NO MATTER WHAT.
Part of why you run into such poor specimins even in the "better" breeders of mixes is two-fold. For one, I would not let one of my carefully bred dogs or girls go to a home where I knew someone was going to breed it to a poodle or a whatever. Also, the people that are interested in breeding only mixes tend to not care if poofy the poodle has a very bad bite (teeth come together poorly, can lead to extreme dental problems later in life = big bucks at the doggie dentist) or they have no idea, since there is no reason for them to learn what proper structure even is in the first place, because they do not show their dogs. So they have dogs that they throw together that have problems and then your mixed breed offsping inherit the problems.
I'll see your two healthy mixes and raise you one "Callie" my Aussie-Chow-Golden Retriever mix that was the only dog I have ever owned to be arthritic by age 3, and died at age six, and one Shi tzu-Bichon mix owned by a hubby's coworker that had several thousands of dollars worth of vet bills over the course of the two years he worked with the woman, and was the unhealthiest dog anyone had ever seen.
That door swings both ways. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. The thing is, I know how the particular problems that run in Shelties might affect my dogs, and know who I ****DON'T***** want to breed to to avoid things like Sheltie Skin. So, I can at least make calculated breedings. When you are crossing dogs of unknown origens, who knows...
I did say at the beginning of my 1 st comment that they are both AKC. And these dogs are not abominable by any means. I have been around the mother and father quite a bit and they are wonderful, healthy animals. My comment was that "NOT ALL" breeders are breeding "bad" mixed breed dogs. Obviously, like I said in my first comment, I know that there are probably quite a few that are but NOT ALL of them are. Classifying every Poo puppy out there as a "bad" dog is wrong! You haven't met all the breeders or seen all of the the dog's being bred, right!
Shi, I just asked how you know that they are show quality. My female is AKC reg. too, but she is not show quality. I am not doubting for a minute they are not AKC registered; all that AKC Registeration requires is registered parents and fifteen bucks. Again, how do you know they are show quality? What I asked was, are the parents AKC or UKC Ch's (champions). In what ways do they meet the written standards for their respective breeds, and what excellences do they have? I am not attacking you, just asking a simple question.
I also never said the parents of your litter are abominible. I simply stated that most of the time, this is the case. I did address you in particular in my post, but the whole post was not addressed to you but rather to the forum as a whole, as an answer to the original question as posed by the original post of the topic.
***Edited By: HopeSheltie on 10/5/2005 1:02:23 PM*** Reason: clarify
Indeed, Heritage, that is very very true. That is why it is so important to know the tendencies of one's own line of dogs, to have knowledge of what genes may be lurking beneath the surface that might be detrimental either later in that dog's life or in the lives of any offspring.
* you never know if the dog will work for allergies so that is no excuse. The guide dog places even admitted it was a failure
*you will not know the temperment. People say they want a puggle. they like pugs but would never want a beagle. so why the hell do they think they should get a pug?! It could end up just like a beagle but with a flat nose.
* I have never met an honest person selling one
* I have had mixed breeds that are very unhelathy. the sister to my baegle terrier mix had to be pts when she was young because she was just poorly bred. thank god ginger is ok but her sister reminded me of so many of these mixes I see in the pet shops. And to think I got my mutts for thirty bucks at the pound.
*Why cna't the person pick an already existing breed that has a set temperment and weight etc. If you cna not choose a dog out of all the breeds they are then there is nothing for you. Mostly because that mix could end up just like one of the parents and then what? there was no pont and ther was a whole litter of pointless pups.
* A breeder should truly love the breed. With these mixes they don't because the pups are nothing like the adults. ANd if they loved the adults why would they mix them?!
It isn't just about the dogs being healthy vs unhelathy it is also about the people that buy into these designer breeds. they have no clue.
ivydragonn, it all depends on what dog you choose. I have purebreeds and mutts and my purebreeds are much helathier because their breeders cared about it. you have to research this stuf. If you go and buy a lab for 200 dollars of course it will be in and out of the vet all the time and be a lot less healthy than most mutts.
Bottom line is if you pick a mutt up and don't research ti can be very unhelthy. If you get a purebreed and don't research it cna be very unhelathy. So research what you are buying. I just would laugh at any perosn who says they love thier breed and mixes them.
***Edited By: joce on 10/5/2005 1:15:59 PM*** Reason: h
Pruebreed or mix doesn't account for if a dog is healthy or not. I have two mix breeds which are healthy and a full breed that is epiletic. You never know what illnesses will affect your dogs in the future. My mom had a full breed Callie that died of a brain aneurism. It came out of no where. If people want prue breed or mix let them decide which is best for them.
I think the thing that most mixed breed breeders are trying to say is that if you mix two different dogs you are eliminating or reducing your chance have having a puppy with one of the more breed specific problems. Here's where most of them mess up - if you breed two breeds with similar breed specific problems then you might as well breed two of the same breed as their odds of having the problem aren't less. Even if you breed two breeds with totally different breed specific problems, you aren't assured health puppies because what is the parent has the dominant gene for the trait? Regardless of what you breed it with it's still going to pass it on.
I've have had both mixed breeds and pure breds be healthy and sickly. It's not the pure or mixed that makes a difference, it's good breeding vs bad breeding. If the breeder KNEW they were breeding two very healthy dogs it would be a different story. Most breeders (pure or mixed) don't test or know the background of their dogs - and the background is equally important because even OFAing hips doesn't mean the puppies can't be displaystic (because the X-ray only means the parents don't have it).
What is tricky with mixed breeds and why I don't personally like them for my own pets (I do have one that I love) - there is no consistency. You gamble with what you are choosing because there is no set temperament or look. Most people don't understand that breeding isn't like mixing a cake. When you breed two dogs the result isn't something 1/2 way between them. The puppy could get Mom's nose, Dad's ears, ect... The same goes with temperament. Parts of the parents show up in the puppy - but of each individual parent, not the two melded together. I think you have better luck when you mix two breeds from the same group (herding, terriers, sporting) but when you pick a herding dog and a terrier - say you tried to breed a Sheltie with a terrier - you might get the terrier temperament with the Shelties desire to bark. All of the sudden you have a dog that is high energy and loud. It's more likely that one puppy will get the good qualities of both, one the bad, and 2 in the middle. What do you do with the pups that didn't get the good traits you were trying to pull out?
I do appreciate all of the KIND comments. The reason that I asked is because I have a friend who is going htrough a really hard point in his life and a loyal friend might be helpful. His children are also affected and I thought a pet would be able to help them also.
He is allergic to dogs but I know there are options out there, but I wanted to get some honest opinions. I knew if I posted by reason for wanting the information I would have gotten a negative response.
Thanks again for all the honest and KIND comments.