no, i pulled my ads here and am doing well at another site. thanks for your interest.

So, if you're doing well at another site, are you posting here just to tell us that you think this site/forum is a joke?

you are a bright one. gold star for you

Aww, thanks! I've always wanted a gold star!

@_@

“no, a forum that insults breeders on a web site that sells dogs is a joke.”


Ironic, isn’t it?

I don’t know where you people get this regurgitate bs. It is not from first hand experience that is for sure. If you don’t know what you are doing, then sure, it can cost you dearly, But when done right, you can make a nice change of it. I know I am. If you can’t, you must be doing something wrong.

I am wanting advice on starting a dog breeding business

this was the opening post. most people dont join a forum until they have read a little while. if they had done that , they would have known how people feel about byb here. this is not a forum for someone wanting to start into breeding. there are other forums for that. and i agree with the poster that said if they have to come on a forum that is mainly directed at sharing our pets with each other, and ask our advice on breeding, then they really dont know enough to even begin breeding at all. if they would have checked this forum out a even a little, they would have known that they would not get open arms from everyone.alot of trolls come on here with those topics and they do it just to stir up trouble, so its not always easy to determine who is serious and who is not. when you come here for advice, dont expect everyone to tell you what you want to hear. you ask advice ? you get it ! take the good with the bad, suck it up and if you are not ready to hear all sides, then dont ask any questions.

thank you Juno. guess i'm not the only one off my meds

***Edited By: glenburns on 10/22/2005 5:23:31 PM***
Reason: spell

Let me get this straight, are the majority of you saying that when Icy first had the idea of breeding dogs, she knew everything she had to do to become a good breeder?
Pretty much everyone here knows how I feel about byb and puppy mills, they are the scum of the earth. But you don't even know what he is planning to do. You are arguing about semantics here.
Ask the guy about his plans before you make a judgement based on ONE WORD business.

PS sorry Icy I used you as an example (everyone here agrees you are a good breeder)

i dont think icy came here to ask how to begin her breeding program. if i was wanting to start breeding my dogs, i would not go on a pet forum, where i dont know anything about anyone, and ask that question. i would talk to other breeders. study up on the breed, talk to my vet , and gain as much knowledge about the breed through those sources. i dont believe that you have to show to be a good breeder. there are some here that are very responsible, huronbreeze, abbylynne, icyhound, just to name a few.some show, some dont. but if i was a new member, i wouldnt know that unless i had been here for awhile. so going to a strange forum wouldnt be a place for me to ask a question about starting up a breeding program.

I have often wondered how people who breed dogs and sell them for $800-$1000 for a pet are not making money. You do the health clearances once, right? Maybe eyes are yearly?

So, say 4 pups at $500 is $2000. Would that amount cover the hips x-rays, etc and future litters would have a higher profit value? Just curious, I don't want to "spar" with anyone:)

Careful People on this board don’t like their bubble burst and don’t like it when some one challenges their misguided believes with facts and logic.

Someone will surly post one of those “breeding costs” figures that are often posted on propaganda sites to discourage breeding so youll see why they all say there is no pofit in it.

glenburns, I am happy for your success elsewhere, may you continue to prosper. If your visit here is to share and enlighten, by all means, you're welcome to do so. If, however your sole purpose is to create problems, perhaps you should refrain from visiting until you have something worthwhile to share.

FYI, I did not attack, I tried to provide a link that would actually inform. It is my own, PERSONAL opinion that it is far better and more lasting to educate folks as to WHY it is crucial to know what they're getting into BEFORE they get into it.

IMO beating someone over the head, even with the facts, tends to make them turn their back and you've lost an opportunity to educate them in the proper ways to go about breeding.

As for making money, yes, breeders with well established programs do in fact make money and have a waiting list for their pups. To get to that point, they have spent thousands of dollars and countless hours of back breaking work to get there. That's not to mention the vet care, proper routine daily care and the research they're invested. In other words, they have paid their dues, proven they know what they're doing and have established themselves as reputable breeders.

How many members of this forum, who breed their dogs are willing to take one of their pups back, no matter what age or reason? How many will keep back puppies in order to insure all owners are happy with their pup?

How many are accepting of the fact that you've bred them, you are responsible for them throughout their entire lives? No matter WHAT.

This isn't a game of re-homing dogs as if they are interchangable pieces of your wardrobe. Someone buys a pup, it doesn't work out so you sell the pup off to the next person ASAP? No, you bring that pup home, find out what the problem is and then might consider re-homing it if all is well. If not, you have an added mouth to feed.

I know some members here do all of those things only reputable breeders do. Those are the ones who have gone into establishing their own lines responsibly and CONTINUE to be responsible.

Yes, it would be wonderful to find mentors for those looking to establish their own bloodlines, but they really need to understand the basics FIRST. THEN, if they feel it is something they are prepared to do, great.

A thought provoking read!
So You Want To Be A Breeder?

ltlgto
Senior Member



joined: 8/11/2004
posts: 1025

msg #1 IP: Logged 4:10:49 PM 3/1/2005

ATTENTION ALL NOVICE POTENTIAL BREEDERS!!!!!

SO YOU WANT TO BE A BREEDER? - Breeding the female

So you want to breed your female. You know what to expect if everything goes right. Your little girl will present you with tiny bundles of joy. She will lovingly nurse them and care for them until they are old enough to be weaned.

You and your family will find great joy in watching and playing with these little dolls, and then when the time is right they will all (or maybe you keep just one) go off to special homes to live out their lives as cherished companions. But have you given consideration to what if something goeswrong? I have listed here a few of the problems that I myself have personal knowledge of. Everything listed has happened either to me or someone I know. These are not isolated incidents. I'm sure other breeders could add miles to my list. Learn by others mistakes!. Let the breeding up to those who know what they are doing, have the experience, know what to expect.

WHAT IF DURING THE BREEDING

The stud dog you have chosen is carrying a venereal disease and gives it to your female. She not only doesn't conceive but you have to pay the vet bills to get her infection cleared up and she is now sterile.
The stud dog you decided to breed your darling to is not experienced. Once the two dogs are joined tightly in a tie, he decides to chase the neighbors cat out of his yard. He bolts for the cat ripping his dog-hood loose and causing your bitch to hemorrhage from within.
Your modest girl decides she doesn't want the attentions of this gigolo mutt chosen for her without her consent. She snaps at him catching her tooth on his loose cheek and rips it open sending blood flying everywhere. He retaliates by sinking his teeth into her left eye.
You leave your dog with the stud owner because the breeding is not going very swiftly. In fact , it's been three hours and nothing is happening. The stud owners leave the two dogs alone in the back yard. The dogs get out through a tiny hole in the fence and a truck hits your female.
You pay the $250-$1000 stud fee up front figuring you will make that and more back when the pups sell. The breeder guarantees the stud service to work or you can come back again. After 2 months you discover it didn't work and now must wait another 4 months to try again. Of course it doesn't work again, so in another 4 months you take your dog to another male and risk loosing another stud fee.
You get her bred. Bring her home. She bothers you so you let her out she is still in heat and still receptive to males. You hear a commotion outside there is your girl tied up with the neighborhood mutt. when she whelps there will need to be DNA tests done on the pups.
You get her bred. Bring her home and let her out. (She is still in heat and receptive to other males) but you do not see the neighborhood mutt breed her. The pups are born but look odd. You call the stud owner he suggests DNA testing (At your expense). You have a litter of mutts! What do you do about the ones you have already sold?
Or knowing she tied with the neighborhood mutt you decide to terminate the pregnancy and try again being more careful next time. But a few weeks later your female is very sick because you had her given a miss-mate shot creating a hormonal imbalance causing a uterine infection and now she has Pyometra and needs a complete hysterectomy. All plans of getting a litter is gone and your female's life is now in danger if she does not have the operation.

WHAT IF DURING THE BIRTH

The puppies are too large for the female. She never goes into labor, the puppies die and she becomes infected by the decaying bodies.
The puppies are coming breech and they drown in their own sacks before they can be born.
The first puppy is large and breech. When it starts coming your female starts screaming, and before you can stop her she reaches around, grabs the puppy in her teeth and yanks it out killing it instantly.
A puppy gets stuck. Neither your female nor you can get it out. You have to race her to the vet. The vet can't get it out either. She has to have an emergency caesarian section of course it is 3:00 am Christmas day.
A puppy is coming out breech and dry (the water sack that protects them has burst). It gets stuck. Mom tries to help it out by clamping her teeth over one of the back legs. The head and shoulders are firmly caught. Mom pulls on the leg, hard, peeling the flesh from the leg and leaving a wiggling stump of bone.
A dead puppy gets stuck in the birth canal, but your female is well into hard labor. She contracts so hard trying to give birth that her uterus ruptures and she bleeds to death on the way to the vet.

WHAT IF DIRECTLY AFTER THE BIRTH

The mother has no idea what to do with a puppy and she drops them out and walks away, leaving them in the sack to drown.
The mother takes one look at the puppies, decides they are disgusting droppings and tries to smother them in anything she can find to bury them in.
The mother gets too enthusiastic in her removal of the placenta and umbilical cord, and rips the cord out leaving a gushing hole pulsing blood all over you as you try in vain to stop the bleeding.
Or, she pulls on the cords so hard she disembowels the puppies as they are born and you have a box full of tiny, kicking babies with a tangle of guts the size of a walnut hanging from their stomachs. Of course all the babies must be put to sleep.
What if because of some Hormone deficiency she turns vicious allowing no one near her or the babies, who she refuses to nurse, or you have to interfere with.
You notice something protruding from her vagina when you let her out to pee. You take her to the vet to discover a prolapsed uterus, which needs to be removed.

WHAT IF WHEN YOU THINK YOU'RE IN THE CLEAR

One or more of the puppies inhaled fluid during birth, pneumonia develops and death occurs within 36 hours.
What if the mother's milk goes bad. You lose three of your four puppies before you discover what is wrong. You end up bottle feeding the remaining pup every two hours, day and night. After three days the puppy fades from infection and dies.
The puppies develop fading puppy syndrome you lose two. You bottle-feeding or tube feeding the last remaining baby. It begins to choke and despite your efforts to clear the airway, the pup stiffens and dies in your hands.
Your female develops mastitis and her breast ruptures.
Your female develops a uterine infection from a retained placenta. Her temperature soars to 105. You race her to the vet, he determines she must be spayed. He does the spay in an attempt to save her life, you pay the hundreds of dollars bill. The infection has gone into her blood stream. The infected milk kills all the puppies and the bitch succumbs a day later.
All the puppies are fine but following the birth the female develops a hormone imbalance. She becomes a fear biter and anytime anyone tries to touch her she viciously attacks them.
Mom and pups seem fine, the puppies are four weeks old and are at their cutest. However, one day one of the puppies disappears. You search everywhere but you can't find it. A few days later another puppy is gone. And another. You can't figure how on earth the puppies are getting out of their safe 4' x 4' puppy pen. Finally there is only one puppy left. The next morning you find the mother chomping contentedly on what is left of the last murdered puppy.

WHAT IF THE NEW HOMES AREN'T SO HAPPY

You give a puppy to a friend. Their fence blows down so they tie the puppy outside while they go to work. A roving dog comes along and kills the puppy. Your friend calls you up to tell you about the poor little puppy and asks when you are having more puppies.
You sell a puppy to an acquaintance. The next time you see them you ask how the puppy is doing. They tell you that it soiled their new carpet so they took it to the pound
You sell a puppy to a friend (you give them a good price and payments). They make a couple of tiny payments. Six months later they move to an apartment. They ask you to take it back. You take it back and of course the payments stop. The dog they returned is so shy, and ill mannered from lack of socialization and training it takes you a year of work providing socializing and training to be able to give it away.
You sell a puppy to a wonderful home. They love her like one of the family. At a vet check done by their vet it is determined that the puppy has a heart murmur. (Your vet found nothing when he checked the puppy before it was sold.) They love their puppy and want the best for her. They have an expensive surgery done. The puppy is fine. They sue you for the medical costs. They win, because you did not have a contract stipulating conditions of guarantee and so as breeder you are responsible for the puppy's genetic health.
You give a puppy to your mother. She is thrilled. Two years later the puppy starts developing problems. It begins to develop odd symptoms and is suffering. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of tests later it is finally discovered that the dog is suffering from a terminal condition that was inherited. possibly from your female since you know nothing about her family lines.
One loving home decides your puppy is untrainable, destructive and wants to return the pup and get a full refund, which you have spent on your vet bills.
One loving couple calls you and is very upset because their pup has crippling hip dysplasia and want to know what you are going to do about it. You have spayed your female so a replacement is out of the question, looks like another refund.

THE SALE

You put your ad in the local paper for your pups at the usual price and get only 2 responses and no sales. You cut the pup's price in half and broaden your advertising to 3 other newspapers in which the advertising totals $120.00 a week.
You get a few more puppy inquiries from people who ask all about health testing you did before breeding and if the pups are registered. You tell them your dogs are healthy and it was enough and that you could get the papers. The callers politely thank you and hang up.
The pups are now 4 months old and getting bigger , eating alot and their barking is really beginning to annoy the neighbors who call the police who inform you of the $150.00 noise by-law.
Your neighbors also call the humane society who comes out to inspect the care of your dogs. You pass inspection but end up feeling stressed and harassed.
You finally decide to give the rest of the litter away but still have to pay the $1200.00 advertising bill and the $600.00 vet bill.
So you gotta ask yourself: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, "breeder?"

See, I disagree. I think a pet forum where no one knows you is the PERFECT place to ask that question. When I was breeding my poms, I went to alot of different forums and posted different questions about breeding. I didn't know everything before I started......should I have, of course but I didn't. I also didn't read the forums beforeForums are also supposed to be a good place to get answers to some questions.
The OP wanted to know how to start a breeding business, why couldn't anyone just answer the question instead of harrassing him. You could have told him to go to a good breeder, or the vet or what ever advice that you thought would be helpful but why the need to make people feel that they are not welcome? This board seems to be very biased against breeding, unless of course it seems to be someone they know.

Maybe better advice for the OP would be to go and LIE on the forum so that they can get a helpful answer.

glenburns - tell me how your friend manages to make money? I'd love to know! I'm lucky if I cover my litter expenses and maybe make some head way towards supporting my adult dogs. IF I encounter no problems I can MAYBE make about .50 an hour myself.

Let me rephrase - no GOOD breeder can make money breeding because they don't ask obscene amounts for their puppies and they don't cut any corners on the care of their dogs. I ask $500 a puppy - and yes I am low end price wise - but I keep my price where it is because I want middle class families to be able to afford a puppy from me. I do run a waiting list and don't breed a litter unless I have the puppies spoken for. Right now I have a 28 person list, I have approx. 7-8 puppies that I haven't offered to those on my list yet (I will be placing them this week) and I don't have anyone else expecting for at least 3 months. I'm still not making money. It will be another 2 years before I even break even if I consider the costs of building my yards, setting up whelping boxes, buying supplies to whelp with, feeding the dogs prior to them being able to produce, the cost of testing and registrations... And I've been breeding for 5 years.

You CAN make money if you mistreat the dogs, feed them cruddy food, don't meet their veterinary needs, and don't treat them like family members (giving them treats, toys, bones). You also won't be able to place the puppies unless you sell to a broker or pet store because the general public is becoming more educated concerning what a good breeder looks like.

No, breeding and business shouldn't be put in the same sentence. That makes it sound like you're putting puppies and cars on the same level - or puppies and furniture. You're dealing with live animals that have needs, likes and dislikes, and feelings and emotions. It had better not be a business. There are aspects of it that should be handled LIKE a business, but unless you can put your heart into it you're never going to do it justice.

Katz - If the person had said "I am looking into how to responsibly breed Jack Russells. Does anyone having any insight they can share concerning where I should research and what I need to learn in order to do so responsibly" That wouldn't have made people mad or set them off. Generally speaking if you view breeding as a "business" you aren't going to be looking at the dogs as the focal point of the endevor - it will be the money and "customers" and the dog will become the "product".

And I agree with whoever said that you shouldn't have to come onto an internet forum to find this information. It can be helpful and I know I've used TP to help make me a BETTER breeder - but I did 2 years of independent research before I even decided to breed because I wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting myself into and that the breed I was choosing was one I was capable of handling the problems/risks with.

***added - Catlover - that is the most accurate piece of information I have read in a while and totally sums up what breeding at it's lows is like. My first litter was a c-section where I lost one of the 4 puppies to hypoglycemia and spent days up with another trying to save him. My second litter, the Mom got a bit overzealous and almost took one of the puppy's feet off when cleaning. We kept her, because I felt bad placing a puppy that will inevitably have arthritis in that foot at an early age. My third litter was a HUGE litter of 8 (Average for a Sheltie is 5) out of a small Mom who couldn't reach her rear end and I had to hand deliver the puppies because by the time she could reach and help she was too tired too. One of these days I will make a list of the problems I encounter on a by litter basis and it will make people think twice about breeding. I 100% vouch for Catlovers posted article and say seriously consider if you have the drive and stamina to go through those things. I've Artificially Inseminated females that aren't cooperative, I've sat through hour long ties with a very pissed off male. I'm in the process of bottle feeding a puppy that is half the size of her litter - ever 2 hours round the clock. I've had to have another Mom foster a litter of pups because the mother of the litter had complications and couldn't care for the puppies (and crossed my fingers she would take the puppies because I didn't want to bottle feed 6 puppies).

Pyrmom said that established breeders can make money - the key there is ESTABLISHED. It takes years to build a reputation. It takes years to pay for all the start up costs required. It takes years to get your program where you want it. Then you have to make the choice - do I make money, or stay affordable for people who were like me when I started breeding - dog lovers with budgets who are willing to put their pet first but not wanting to spend $1000 on a dog.

Testing is only a small part of the costs involved with breeding. Good food costs money - and a litter of puppies can eat a lot. Good wormer costs money. Good vet care costs money. Toys, and bones, and treats (things puppies should be exposed to in order to optimize their socializtion) cost money. And you do have to consider how much time it takes to raise a litter well. I put about 400-500 hours into each litter from planning the breeding to finding the puppies homes to everything in the middle. In a sense, it needs to pay some of my bills at some point or I'll be moving into the dog house with the dogs.

And Pyrmom made an excellent point - are you willing to be responsible for each puppy for their whole life. It's part of breeding. If it's born with a defect and you can't place it - will you keep it and put the money into it's surgery, into it's care (I have a deaf Sheltie that another breeder dumped at the Humane Society as a pup). What if the family isn't happy with the puppy? What if you discover one of the families is mistreating the dog? I've had this happen and it cost me $1200 to get her back and that doesn't touch on the work I had to put into getting her back.

You want "figures" - The litter I mentioned that I had to have a foster Mom take the puppies. It takes me 2 puppies to cover the litter expenses. (roughly $1000 - for food, vaccines, wormer, vet care, etc...) The sick Mom cost me $1500 in vet bills (there's 3 more puppies). That leaves one puppy to cover the cost of the Mom's food, routine vet care, vaccines, toys, ect... for the year and 1/3 of the sires (he'll have 3 litters this year). This doesn't even start on my time that was put into the litter, which was close to 700 hours because of having to deal with a sick Mom. I REALLY didn't make money - in fact, I lost more than if I'd never considered breeding the litter. I just got pictures and updates from 4 of the 6 families in the last week and thank you letters from all for allowing them to have such a special dog in their life. That's what makes it worth it and why I breed.




***Edited By: abbylynne on 10/22/2005 6:56:20 PM***
Reason: add

Ivy and Scout, glad you liked the link! Good for youScout on scoring so high on the quizzes~see, you're smarter than the average bear!

Katz, I'm not sure what it is you're suggesting? Arfe you saying that everyone should encourage everyone to just blindly get into breeding with no understanding of what it is they are getting into?

Scout and the others who sent me the e-mails on the missing link, just add /forum after the url!

catlover (sorry!) thanks for the information. THink it might prove useful information to more than just the new poster.

Cecile, you are ALSO in big trouble!

***Edited By: pyrmom on 10/22/2005 6:41:04 PM***
Reason: ugh

Pyrmom,
Not at all. I think your link was very helpful. I just am so tired of seeing everyone immediately calling people a puppy mill or telling them to go to the "puppymill forum", honestly, how is that helpful? That is just rude.
This person asked a question and he should have gotten a decent answer. (A couple people did)
The reason this annoys me, is because this is not a one time thing......it happens ALL the time on here.
The OP said he wanted to start a jack russel breeding business(I believe he could have just meant a breeding program) and he wanted to know where to start, he should have gotten his question answered by the "over 13 year old" Adults that are supposed to be members of this forum. I believe that the over 13 rule is there is because I think after that age is when you are supposed to be a little more mature. You honestly couldn't tell on this board have the time.

the internet is about getting info. if I am interested in somting new, i look it up in google. maybe i find a forum and ask a question instead of reading hundreds of past topics. we all do it. but to attack the question like the first few responses is wrong. going against popular opinon is your right. also pyromom, I was not braging about using another site,, i was simply answering an attack. i hope that wasnt your point.

glenburns, while i enjoy a good campfire with the best of them, i am not a fire starter. Pyrmom, no "o" on there after the Pyr.

As for my comments to you, you haven't been here in a while, as I recall the last thread you were in was one informing all of us how much you dislike this forum, the rules, the mods and most particulalrly THIS mod. My comments were simple and direct, if you don't enjoy this forum, find it, the rules, the members or the mods offensive perhaps you would be happier if you refrain from posting here.



***Edited By: pyrmom on 10/22/2005 6:56:42 PM***
Reason: xxx

abbylyne, what top breeder do you know that dosn't charge top prices? also,,, no breeder figures the hourly rate of profit. most would rather spend time with their dogs than be at work. (i would). if you are unable to make a profit and still act responsable then you are doing something wrong. if you have healthy dogs with good bloodlines then you can ask market value for them.