Pixie, I have no idea why you have such an axe to grind with me both here and on other forums, but it's getting old.

Not bothering to find out what the expected protocols are in your breed before breeding is no excuse for breeding pet quality animals of UNKNOWN health status.

I will breed this bitch with my eyes wide open, should that time come to pass.

Her progeny will be screened the same way.

Their issues or health will be common knowledge, and open for perusal in all the data bases.



By the same token, I find NO excuse for not finding out what the proper breeding procedures are in your breed BEFORE you breed, not after.

However, after is better than never.

***Edited By: scout1 on 12/3/2005 7:49:22 AM***
Reason: EDITED OUT REFERENCE TO ANOTHER POSTERS UNCALLED FOR COMMENT

Katz you rock as always! I am so happy that you were so polite. I was actually amazed at the topic being started. You could tell it was obviously the starter that wanted to get a heated argument out of this. So glad to see that being positive put the negative back in the hole. If we keep being so nice like this maybe all the topics that are started to cause a fight will stop. Those people will just have to find another forum to argue at since obviously that is what they enjoy doing.

I also wanted to add that I agree with everyone else. I don't think it is right to say someone knows oh so much and we are intimidated by that person. No one knows anyone on here so we think. I personally would buy a dog from Katz in a second because she is kind and honest and knows she is always learning. Not afraid to say she made a mistake. Unlike others who think they are perfect. Hey it shows when someone comes on here yes they may know alot about dogs, but the additude of "acting" like they are better ruins the feeling of ever wanting a dog from them.

I guess I didn't understand what preliminary meant. I always thought preliminary meant introductory, first round, precursory. I always thought it suggested that there was more to follow. Huh I guess it's just me. Doesn't grade 1 mean Minimal Arthosis. I was told that minimal meant smallest in amount or degree. Guess my teachers were wrong about that too. Oh and I thought red said she would do more testing and then make an informed decision.

All of us have differing opinions and if mine seem "old" to you it is because I choose to hold people to the same standards they try to hold other's to.
I see a lack of logic in a lot of arguments that come from"responsible breeders". And I see a lot of people bashed that are NOT BYB just because they do not do thngs exactly the same as other's.
If you feel it is OK to jump all over a new breeder or past breeder (Katz as example), then expect the same questions to be directed at you. Being rude and calling it "direct, firm strong' is not a cover--rude is rude.
I test my dogs--not just CERF, since that is only for one year--but ERG. And I know how my heart was in my throat as I waited for the results. IF my dog had not been clear, I would have neutered him. I now have 5 generations of tested clear dogs. You can't DO better if you don't BREED better.

BTW, I just want to make it clear that I do not have a problem with Katz. She made an uninformed decision. Oh well, we all make mistakes. At least she is not out there breeding her dogs like crazy. She is 22 now and I am guessing this was a few years back. Haven't you guys made mistakes as young adults?

As I read the topic again, it does amaze me that someone would criticize someone for breeding their dog before testing. Then that same person doing the criticizing has a dog that has a problem they know about and still continue to breed. Guess it is ok if you know everything about testing then your dog does not need to pass 100%. You can just tell everyone else how they should breed, but you don't have to follow it 100%. Very good point Katz and Pixie as always!

Loving, you are so all over the place and you seem to be involved in every single arguement on this site.
It seems as though you look for a "hero", and a butt you think is worthy of kissing and hold on for dear life.

At least when I am involved in a heated debate, if I am rude I own my position and my behavior.
I don't hide behind veiled statements and then totally change my mind because I am worried about the crowd turning on me.

I hope the mods ban your newest name like your others, I will sit back and wait as it is a matter of time.

Speaking of learning from our mistakes, how is that working for you?

Oh, I apologize i just realized my post probably doesn't seem to make much sense.
For those of you who are totally lost as to what I am talking about....

Scarydog = LovingEmPuppies.

1. I never said Katz was a bad person. She DOESN'T breed dogs anymore. She made a mistake when she was young. Young people make stupid mistakes all the time. We shouldn't bother with other people's teenage mistakes. If she was breeding now, I would have a problem with it. I would think she was a horrible breeder but she isn't breeding now so what's the big deal.

2. Red is very knowledgeable and I respect her. I think some of you are just jumping on here without reading everything red said. I followed what she said and her dog Penny had a preliminary grade 1. Do you guys know what preliminary means? For those of you who don't, it means first round or precursory. Meaning she will do more tests at a later date. She is not currently breeding her dog either. A grade 1 means minimal and minimal means smallest amount. Red said that she would make her decision after other tests so what's the beef?

Scary--RR fully intends to breed that dog and has, on this forum, defended breeding her dog WITH the elbow disorder by saying
"it's ok according to the breed club ethics'
"it's Ok because the gene pool is too small"
And she has said this on other forums as well.
She intends to breed "according to her club ethics" which as it is ok to breed this particular problem.

She also said Penny was too good of a bitch to throw away, and that she will breed her even if she has elbow problems.

Moo.

My 2cents.....I have owned Rotties in the past myself 2 of which were before anyone knew what the breed even was back in the early 1970's. Both came from a well known show kennel back then. Toby had elbow & hip dysplasia. We sent him back & got Max who ended up with hip dysplasia. Goes to show it's been a major problem even long ago. Then 15 plus years ago I bought one from another show kennel on the west coast & he died from interception where the intestines telescopes inside of each other. (Common in Rotties so is Parvo) I personally would NEVER breed a dysplastic dog no matter how mild. There are so many other problems with Rotties as well....cancer being the # 1 killer in Rotties! Not only should Rotties be OFA certified clear, but also don't breed if there is cancer in the line, or OCD (Osteochondritis dessicans a growth disorder in the joints), PRA (Progressive retinal atrophy), Heart defects, & Hypoththyroidism. Rotties unfortunately as much as I love the sweet lug heads, I will never own another due to the poor breeding practices that continues today, producing dogs with major health issues. They have been ruined from breeders who aren't doing enough to discourage the many health issues that exist today. It happened to Cockers, Labs, Dobies, German Shepherds just to name a few ruined breeds.

though you and i do not see eye to eye on a lot of things katz ...... i have to ditto becky's statement to you .....

It is remarkable of you to answer this thread with such class and to have been so honest Katz.

I would like to add my compliments to Katz for her well "spoken", thoughtful reply.

Katz admits to breeding animals knowingly who are of grossly incorrect breed type with no health testing.

Katz has learned how to say the right thing on a BB.

Let's do hope she really HAS learned the lessons she says she has. Just because you don't know about it does not mean it's not there.

Re ED in the Rottweiler:

In my quest for continuing education on this matter, I have posed the question on all my mailing lists as to whether one would or would not breed an animal who is Grade 1 DJD in one elbow, or would one not.

Responses from a wide cross section of experienced Rottweiler people are running about 15 to 1 in favor of using the affected individual, but only under certain criteria:

Obvious criteria one is that the animal in question is absolutely sound.

Obvious criteria 2 is that the animal should be bred only to a normal indivudual who, if possible has normal parents and grandparents. This is IMPOSSIBLE to find in Rottweilers, so one has to do the best one can in that respect.

I will also add the criteria that all offspring from any breedings from my Grade 1 DJD bitch MUST be elbow screened at 2 years of age by the OFA, and results disclosed, good or bad.

Using an animal with Grade 1 DJD elbows in Rottweilers is not a black and white issue. With almost half our population that is being screened with the OFA affected, some estimate that as much as SEVENTY percent of the general population is affected.

One study was done where 100 dogs were followed. 50 dogs were selected on the basis of their OFA normal results. 50 dogs were selected on their OFA ABnormal results.

These dogs were all autopsied after death. Every single one has changes in the elbow joint. Every single one.

There are dogs who have OFA hip and elbow numbers who cannot stand up to advanced work with jumping and hard running and turning.

There are MANY dogs rated Grade 1 DJD who do this sort of work into their veteran years with no hint of lameness.

There is more to this issue than saying, "oh, this dog did not get an elbow number, neuter it."

In order to improve, one must look at the entire animal, and the entire pedigree, and study it, and try your best to make decisions that will benefit.

Taking one issue, elbows, and deciding not to breed a dog on the basis of that one issue, when the results are SO equivocal at this time, is not advisable.

This issue is so widespread in our breed that it is almost impossible to find ANY animal who has 3 generations of elbow normal dogs behind it. This simply does not exist.

So we must do the best we can with using the most normal individuals possible, while still considering for use other animals who are SOUND who may be graded DJD1, IF they have things to offer the gene pool that are important not to be lost.

This is my EDUCATED opinion. I love and respect my breed, and I would never EVER make any breeding I felt would be a detriment to it, no matter how gorgeous or successful the dog might have been in the show or working rings.

Interestingly enough, Katz not only admited to her faults in her earlier breedings, but has stated (more than once) that she no longer breeds and IF she did do so again, she would do it properly. Not sure what else you could ask of her.

This note is in regard to a top winning dog who is DJD1 in one elbow and DJD2 in the other one.

THese comments are by Clara Hurley, of Powderhorn/Wencrest Rottweilers http://www.rottweilerbooks.com/ since 1966.

http://bisscahill.com/claras_note.htm

Katz, great response! Red, why do you keep badgering her? Let hope what she says is true...?.. Whatever, nobody is perfect, not even you.

But Red, the difference with Katz is that she did not make condescending remarks to other people that breed. Since she wasn't testing her dogs or conforming to the ethical breeds standards, if she would have looked down on others for doing the same thing, she would have been hypocritical. But she has never done that. I would say she is being the bigger person by admitting to her faults and realizing that she should not be breeding dogs.

No matter how minor the flaw, the fact is that there is one. And I'm sure you could find another female out there for your breeding program that doesn't have these testing issues. If your female tests again and comes out clear than I will eat my words and apologize. Let us know. But the fact that you would breed her regardless of the results is hypocritical to me. At the very least, if you are going to go through with the breeding, than you shouldn't be preaching to others about their breeding practices or whether or not their dog conforms to their standard. People get defensive when there is a double standard....

People should take the time to learn about proper breeding practices before they breed, not after. This information is very easy to find with the internet so easy to use these days.

I'm glad she's learned, and certainly do hope if she ever decides to breed again, she will apply her knowledge at that time.

She has defended her breeding choices on this forum time and again, and quite recently, so forgive me if I take the above post with a grain of salt.