You are very correct in your statement that she should have learned before and not after. But in all reality, this isn't about Katz. It's about your double standard way of thinking. As far as this debate and Katz being concerned, what she did pretty much just affects her and her conscience. It is looked down on, sure. But she is not making others feel badly or making condescending remarks. What you are doing is affecting us all because you preach to us about ethical breeding but don't seem to follow your teachings.
I believe the biggest difference here is the one that has been pointed out to you several times Red...Katz does not have the habit of setting herself above others as do you. Rather than simply admit that perhaps you may be mistaken in ANY instance you either ignore the proof or go on the attack against others.
Your breeding program is your choice and responsibility. No one else has the right to make those decisions. However, if others disagree with your choices, they are free to express that opinion, just as you have so often expressed yours.
This note is in regard to a top winning dog who is DJD1 in one elbow and DJD2 in the other one. ********************************************** Winning and health and betterment of the breed don't seem to go together quite as much as some like to preach. After all this conversation, my position is this--a person does not have to show to know how to breed better dogs or breed to the standard. Showing should be considered a "take it or leave it" and not a criteia for breeding. And yes, I show. And no, I don't put down breeders who don't.
***Edited By: PixiedustPapillons on 12/3/2005 12:30:26 PM*** Reason: sp
I agree with both Pixie and Ben. Both well stated. ********************************************** Thank you. I know of seveal breeders in paps who have produced winning dogs and even BIS dogs and never have shown themselves or with a handler. Proof that breeding can be done by those who read the standard and work on quality. Breeding only for wins and breeding only for money are the same--wrong.
It is getting crazy now! Seems we have what 3 topics up about all this testing stuff. Sounds like someone got busted and is trying anything possible to make their double standard seem right. Give up move on go to a forum who will worship you the way you want to be worshiped. Here it is NOT going to happen.
You can't change the past, only the future. Katz did EXACTLY what we want every BYB to do: she learned more about breeding, and based on that new information, chose a more responsible course of action.
"Katz has learned how to say the right thing on a BB."
LMAO. No, not really. Katz routinely has conflicts on this board because she always says what she really thinks, consequences be damned. If she says she's stopped breeding, she has. If she says her long-term breeding plans include health testing, they do. If you stick around here long enough, you'll see that Katz always calls it like she sees it, no matter what anyone else thinks.
Holidayzbliss, just because everyone is on the "red has clay feet" bandwagon does not mean I'm going to cut and run from here.
I have NOTHING to hide in my dogs or my breeding program whatsoever. The decisions I make would be considered ethical in ANY doggy circles you care to poll or run in.
The decisions I am going to make in breeding Penny are widely supported by the majority of people in mine, and other breeds.
Do I wish her left elbow was normal instead of DJD1?
You BET I DO!!
If I get a bitch as nice as this one who can pass elbows plus all the other health testing, will I use HER for breeding instead of her mother who has a Grade 1 elbow?
If I get a majority of passing elbows in the first litter, will I breed her again?
These are my educated decisions, and they are based on years of research, statistics, and listening to the advice and experiences of those who have much more experience in this breed than I.
It might be the wrong decision.
ANY breeding might be the wrong decision.
I bred a litter in 1996 from 2 elbow/hip/eye/heart normal dogs, and I got an entire litter with elbow problems.
There were 2 puppies in that litter who were nice, who were rated DJD grade 1. Did I use them for breeding? NO.
Did or would I even CONSIDER them for breeding? NO.
There were lame puppies all over that litter, one who had to be surgically corrected for FCP, and not a puppy in the litter would have gotten an OFA elbow number.
I have a handsome young bitch, 4 years old, who is moderately to severely dysplastic in both elbows, who is from elbow normal parents. This bitch has been lame after heavy exercise since she was 7 months old. She has been spayed since she was 15 months old. I would never consider using her for breeding.
Penny is down from generations of PHYSICALLY VISIBLY SOUND dogs, who had DJD in the elbows, who have demonstrated marked improvement in elbow status in each generation.
I know her sire, I knew her sire's sire, and his sire personally. I know 6 generations back on her dam's paternal side. These are dogs I knew, who I saw compete from puppy classes right on up to veteran's classes. I am familiar with their littermates and their progeny.
This is not a haphazard or spur of the moment decision for me.
But in my experience, people on BBs just love to see someone who has given tough correct advice about responsible breeding to others get torn down.
Yes maybe in your circle it is supported by the "majority". The ones that disagree in what you are doing are the ones that are actually right! There are lots of things in the world that some think is ok like example abortion. It is legal, but that does not make it right.
So to you I say you may have your circle of friends, or know other "ethical breeders" that think it is ok to breed this dog. I just think if you know there is something even so little, tiny it probably wont be a problem, but could be at any point to your bitch or the future pups you should not be breeding that dog. That is the right practice to follow.
If someone says it is ok to jump off a bridge are you going to just because the circle of friends say chances are we will make it? Me NO WAY! I make my own decisions and in my heart I could not live with breeding a dog that has any issues.
Deep down that is the truth. You are going to breed a dog with a issue minimal or not. Just because it is ok to a select few that does not make it right practice.
***Edited By: holidayzbliss on 12/3/2005 5:00:11 PM*** Reason: ..
tough correct advice about responsible breeding to others get torn down.
It won't change a thing in MY life, rest assured. ********************************************** Why is YOUR advice 'correct" and other's advice to you NOT correct? Why do you tell other's to change at your command and not expect the same from yourself? Your advice is not tough--it is rude and self-serving and correct only in your own eyes. Let's use your own words
''Whether you would like to think so or not, there is a right way to breed dogs, and about a million wrong ones.
There is only ONE right way to do it. " http://www.terrificpets.com/forum/27022.asp So alicat, the boxer breeder you bashed, is just as good a breeder as you are. Opps, I got that wrong--she has said she has had no problems with her litters, as you have had.
"But in my experience, people on BBs just love to see someone who has given tough correct advice about responsible breeding to others get torn down."
That may be true, but I do not work that way. I am only speaking from my own experiences with dogs that have had genetic defects. Koda has a minor problem with his lungs, really nothing major, nothing that would kill him on its own. But what it has done, is made his life less then it can be. My dog can only come inside for a short time before he starts having trouble breathing because he gets too hot and starts hyperventilating. From what my vet said, this is considered a minor issue medically and many people either do not know about it in their dogs, or choose not to do anything about it. It is usually not a consideration when breeding dogs because there is no proof that this is hereditary. So, although I see my dog suffer every day because he wants to come in and be with his family, and more then likely his life span will be cut short a few years due to the extra work his heart has to do when he does get too warm, it is not being prevented at all in the dog breeding world.
Chloe, she was put to sleep at 4 months old due to a congential defect in her throat which caused her to have problems swallowing. We spent alot of money on her in the two months we had her, she went through two surgeries and numerous other tests. I apologize as I cannot remember the name of this defect but it is also one that is considered "rare" and so it is not actively avoided in the dog breeding world because people also think that it is not hereditary. She was also born with an elongated soft palette.
Kaia, was put to sleep a few months ago. She had a rare disorder called Pituitary Dwarfism, something most commonly found in GSD but still a rare disorder. NOT actively avoided in the dog world because of two reasons, one it is still considered rare and it usually affects only one in a litter(easily culled before anyone knows about it). And also because some people are trying to use this deformality to try and achieve a miniature GSD. To the sadness of the poor dogs that are affected by it. Kaia also had severe luxating patellas, that was the most heartbreaking thing to watch as she was such a happy dog before everything started to happen. After her defects started to show, she was never the same. She would try to play with Koda only to end up yelping in excruciating pain. There was MANY days where she couldn't even stand. Do you have any idea how hard it is to watch your dog not be able to stand up?? Do to her PD she eventually started to show some aggression, it got to the point where I couldn't trust her around Koda or my kids. Now you have to understand, all of these changes happened in a matter of only a couple WEEKS. We were finally told that she had about a month before she would quit walking altogether without surgery but even with her surgery, she would be alive for MAXIMUM of a year. We opted to have her put to rest and out of pain.
We also believe that Chuka may have had something wrong with her, she seemed to have some mental problems.
So with all due respect, Forgive me, if I have a problem with someone KNOWINGLY breeding genetic defects into their dogs!
***Edited By: KatzPomDogz on 12/3/2005 5:05:59 PM*** Reason: added
I know there is for the Luxating Patellas. Koda was diagnosed through an x-ray. I will ask my vet. As far as Chloe, I do not know but I can find out from my vet, Same with Kaia. However, with Kaia, if it is in the bloodlines for PD it WILL happen again at some point, it is just not real common so it is kind of kept hidden. My vet did alot of research on it as well as did I. He said he talked to alot of other vets that said it was happening frequently that owners and breeders were having pups euthanized for PD but not telling other puppy buyers that it was there. Apparently, it happens alot that people will cull the pups and when submitting AKC forms just never mention the other pup or put it that it died from suffocation or other natural causes. I will see if I can get some more information on any tests that can be done to prevent any of these defects from happening again. The biggest problem is that people still breed these dogs that produce pups with genetic defects even after they know that they have them or are producing them.
Unfortunately, I only found out about these disorders because the dogs were already suffering from them. I will talk to my vet next week and see if I can find out some more about what tests can be done to pre diagnose these problems.