all this information was taken fron the ACC's bi monthly publication for its members. references to where they obtained the information is at the end.

it was a 3 page article so i just took out the highlights of it for you :

examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

normal elbow to normal elbow=12.2 percent offspring affected with ED.

normal elbow to dysplastic elbow = 26.1 % to 31.3 % offspring affected

dysplastic elbow to dysplastic elbow = 41.5 % offspring affected.

in this very large breeding study of primarily labs, goldens, rotties and gsd's the rate of ED more then doubled when one parent was affected. in any breed where the overall percentages of affected dogs is already lower that the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog ... one would find few curcumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED.

a comprehensive published study using the data provided by the swedish kennel club included the following results :

"there was a positive relationship between the prevalence of elbow arthrosis of any grade and the percentage of affected dogs with moderate or severe (grade 2 or 3) elbow arthrosis(ir: matings of affected parents resulted not only in more affected progeny, but also in progeny with more severe grades of elbow arthrosis)" the term elbow arthrosis used in this study refers to arthritic changes in the elbow joint regardless of the underlying cause.

some breeders believe that grade 1 elbows are within the "normal" range much like fair hips are considered to be within the normal range. what is OFA's position on this ?
the OFA distinction between normal and abnormal elbows is actually more clearly defined than are the differences between fair and borderline hips. elbows are diagnosed as dysplastic when evidence of DJD is present as evidenced by osteophytes or sclerosis. it is not a gradual contnuim from normal ro abnormal in which minor differences might be interpreted as normal by one reader and abnormal by another. the degree of DJD present is the determiining factor in the grade of dysplasia.
it is also important to understand that DJD is a finding which aids in the diagnosis of elbow dysplasia but the DJD itself is the secondary result of one or more of 3 distinct etiologies that make up the generalized description of elbow dysplasia. these are united anconeal process, fragmented coronoid process and osteochondrosis which may appear singularly or in combination.

my dog has never limped. how can it have ED ?

like hip dysplasia, many dogs affected with grade 1 ED do not exhibit lameness and like hip dysplasia breeders cannot depend on using clinical signs to diagnose the disease. dogs with minimal pathology involving the medial coronoid process may not always resent clinical lameness as the DJD and fibrosis of soft tissues may actually help to stabilize the joint. it is very likely that using lameness as a guideline to accept the diagnosis of ED would be permit an increased incidence of disease genes to proliferate in the breeding population.

breeders have often misinterpreted the OFA's statement that DJD is not an inerited disease to mean that ED is not inherited

to clarify DJD results from ED, but DJD itself is not inherited. however multiple current studies have all concluded that the heritability of ED is moderate to high. this means that breeding selections can have a significant impact on the rate of ED in a breed. studies have shown that as the frequency of ED increases in a breed population, there is a coresponding precentage increase of dogs affected with more moderate to severe grades 2 and 3 cases of ED.

http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/gca?gca=31%2F4%2F327&sendit=Get+All+Checked+Abstract%28s%29

javma 1997;210-221
acta 1976 pp299-305
aaha 1986:22:711-724
............................................................................

armed with all this information ...... i still do not believe breeding an affected dog is anything but detrimental to the breed as a whole....JMO



***Edited By: scout1 on 12/1/2005 8:34:09 PM***
Reason: typo

Wow, no comments??? I am totally surprised.

Scout--we often disagree, but on this point I AGREE totally! A breeder can't improve if they breed health problems. What good is testing if you ignore the results?

Is a test that comes back Grade 1 considered dyplastic? Is it a black/white issue?

What effects does this type of elbow have on a dog?

Im wondering if Red told her buyers that the mother of the puppy they were buying failed that test?

And I agree with Pixie, how can you better the breed if you breed a dog with health problems. Passing every other test but failing one does not mean it's okay to pass down that one problem.

There are very few if any in Rottweilers who would exclude my bitch from breeding.

I don't expect any of you to understand, however, I have done a lot of soul searching on this issue, whether you choose to believe it or not.

This bitch represents almost 20 years of struggling for me in my breed to finally acquire a bitch to show who I feel has something to contribute to her breed.

It's fun for some people to find a chink in the armor of others who have a nice dog, or some information to offer.

I appreciate your info, Scout, and I'm quite familiar with all of it.

When I weigh one elbow that is Grade 1 DJD against the rest of my bitch's strengths and virtues, the 1 elbow that was prelim'd grade 1 will not cause me to throw out the rest of her excellent qualities and not use her for breeding.

That may not be the decision that you would make with your dogs and in your breed.

That does not make me automatically wrong or irresponsible for choosing to use this bitch for breeding.

I am going into this with my eyes WIDE open. Her progeny will be screened carefully, and I hope to see an improvement in the elbow status.

Breeding is about improvement, and should be always.

Even in countries where breeding is SCRUPULOUSLY controlled, such as Germany, this bitch would qualify for breeding with her elbow rating.

You might like to try to make me look like a fool here, and paint me with the irresponsible paint brush. However, after all these years, and all the trials I have withstood to remain steadfast in my breed, I would never choose to use any dog for breeding that I did not feel had something special to offer the gene pool.

The respect of my peers in my breed means more to me than anything anyone who has no experience with my breed could ever write on some inconsequential bulletin board that I come to to try to offer help to pet people who need it.

So tear me down if it makes you feel better.

I am CONFIDENT in my decision to use this bitch for breeding.

If you'd like the addies of some Rottweiler specific mailing lists where you can poll the membership on whether they would use an otherwise excellent specimen for breeding who had one elbow graded DJD1, let me know.

I'll be happy to provide you with 1 or 6.

Meanwhile, you can both comfort yourselves with the fact that yep, I have clay feet.

Acey, her elbow status is disclosed on the OFA website,

http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=eternal+moon+finders+keepers&x=0&y=0


and in every piece of advertising that will ever go out on her.

Anyone who has approached me for a puppy has been told point blank and up front, that this bitch is Grade 1 in one elbow.

I would never ever mislead any buyer in that respect.

You can see her ad here, and her elbow status is on the photo.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a22/RedyreRotties/PenAd72Col.jpg

So yeah.

I'd say I've given full disclosure.

***Edited By: redyre_rotties on 12/2/2005 9:54:25 AM***
Reason: -----

Red, you are the most knowledgeable, well-read, highly educated person in this forum and I think some people are intimidated by you. Would you please explain to all of us what an elbow that is Grade 1 DJD mean. I think some people are talking without really knowing what this means.

Scary, there is good information in the first post on this thread concerning that topic.

You can also find more info at the OFA's website at http://www.offa.org

It is a dicey subject, and if I could pull a normal elbow rating out of a hat for Penny, I certainly would.

It's possible that her final OFA elbow rating will be normal.

It's also possible that her final OFA elbow rating will indicate a worsening of her condition.

In that circumstance, I would need to do more diagnostics, and consult with others more experienced in my breed before making a final decision on whether to use her or not.

At any rate, if she does get used for breeding, the elbow status of her progeny and her own littermates will be carefully noted so that I can see if I am making any progress of not in producing more normal individuals.

Correct me if I am wrong Red but from what I understood was there have been litters who all had bad elbows and both parents were normal. In this case how can you explain the bad elbows? If this is true then the manner of testing might be flawed. How do we even know that Penny will pass on this trait? I am not an expert and I don't claim to be so unless I know exactly what this whole saga is about I should not bother forming an opinion.

By the way, Red Penny is beautiful.

This is fun. So we know last month I was slammed because of what I consider my informed decision not to hip test my dogs which are ranked 67th for dysplasia. I know the risks, and I feel not testing is acceptable after talking with my vets. MOST show people in my breed (like it or not) do NOT test hips. It is rare, again facts are only 3600 boxers have ever had their hips tested.

Yet I was berated until I really didn't feel like ever coming on this site again. What is the difference if you test or don't if you are ignoring the results.

I heart test, which is a big problem with boxers. Many have innocent murmurs even in to adulthood. What if I chose to breed dogs I knew had a minor heart problem that would be passed down to offspring? My dogs are show dogs too.

You may or may not like what I test for, but if I knowingly had a dog with a problem there is no way I would breed it, under any circumstances. People on here are hypocrites.

alicat, did you see Penny? I saw your dogs and they are not ideal examples of the breed. I am not an expert but I saw pictures of what show dog quality boxers look like (scout's link) and yours are not. Your bitches are pet quality. You say your dogs are show dogs too but sweetie we are not talking about flea market dog shows here because they don't count.

Scarey, there are indeed many dogs who are abnormal elbows who have been bred from normal parents.

This does not mean that we should not try to keep as MANY normal dogs in the gene pool as possible.

It also does not mean that an animal graded DJD1 in ONE elbow should not be considered in any way for breeding assuming the rest of the animal is of high quality.

One cannot base breeding decisions on one test and one test only, particularly when results have been as unpredictable and equivocal as elbow results in my breed.

I would wonder how many who are on the "Redyre Rotties is irresponsible for planning to use a dog with one elbow DJD1" bandwagon show dogs and plan breedings using health testing as a determining factor.

I would wonder how many of them would throw out such a gorgeous young bitch based on a preliminary elbow rating of DJD1 in one elbow?

Not one prospective puppy buyer or stud dog owner has expressed any concern whatsoever with her elbow rating.

At age 2 she will have a CHIC number, and all her health testing info, and all that of any and all of her progeny will be fully disclosed on the OFA website, whether it's deemed normal or not, so that others can use this information to make informed breeding decisions.

"would wonder how many who are on the "Redyre Rotties is irresponsible for planning to use a dog with one elbow DJD1" bandwagon show dogs and plan breedings using health testing as a determining factor."

Not me. I did have this plan to make some "chuggles", you've probably never heard of them..they are pretty rare. But I decided not to...lol. ;p just a little joke.

Ace, I'm sure you will have a two year waiting list for those chuggles. Put me on the list sweetie. Don't charge less than $2,000. They'll be worth evey penny.

Scarydog, glad you are not a judge because my bitch took first in her futurity in Columbus OH not two weeks ago. She also placed 1-2 out of 9 in her class all weekend. She will be a Ch by the end of summer. So you know what you can do right?

alicat, do you have any pictures?? I would like to see them.

http://www.terrificpets.com/forum/26568.asp

The only pics I have of my girl currently showing are from when she was 4 months old w/ a show crop that made her look like a Jack rabbit. She has since grown in to her ears. I also have 2 other bitches and 2 puppies that I have been told I should show (depending on funds for the handler). I wish we had something where we could PM people. I don't know why we can't.

I would also like to say that not all my bitches are Ch material. I know some have confirmational flaws. People w/ champion dogs will tell you that ALL dogs have flaws, even CH's.

I would rather my flaws be confirmational than poor temperments or health issues. ALL of my girls have the pedigree behind them to create show prospect puppies when bred to quality males that have features that correct their flaws. They have good enough Pedigrees to be bred w/ Champions with no question. Besides, not everyone wants a show puppy.

Thanks. I didn't want to be advertising.