I have to input here.. I'd also never breed a dog that OFAed as ED.. regardless of her other qualities, because bone structure is the one of the most inheritable physical traits in breeding.
However, note that this dog's prelims are just that, preliminary. They can change for the better or for the worse after the dog reaches 2 years. Riddick's sire was bred to dam based on his prelim OFA hips (x-ray was done at like 15 months age).. which came up as excellent. But when they did the actual OFA for his permanent records at 25 months, he was OFAed as dysplastic. So now our breeder is very worried not just bout Riddick but the girl pup she kept and all the other puppies that were from that breeding.
***Edited By: Minniyar on 12/2/2005 11:36:03 AM*** Reason: add
The fact is, many people who would be considered responsible in boxers don't test hips.
That is not really the issue.
Breeding pet quality bitches of extremely incorrect type, the selling of any puppy with full "breeding rights" as long as you have the cash, breeding of litter after litter after litter after litter from dogs AND bitches who are not of breeding quality, and selling of puppies for $1800 from untitled parents is my issue.
scarydog New Member
joined: 10/29/2005 posts: 110
msg #32 IP: Logged 8:30:00 PM 11/9/2005
If you charge me $1800 for a dog I am going to assume you did testing. Why else would you charge such a high price? I think I know why but I best keep it to myself. If you want a pet quality boxer that hasn't had testing you can get one from the pound or from the newspaper
I do the testing I feel is necessary. I don't claim otherwise. If people ask, I tell them. I have NEVER lied. Truth is the average public does not care. Furthermore, ANY PUPPY I HAVE EVER SOLD FOR NEAR $1800 is FROM A TITLED AKC CHAMPION, RANKED NATIONALLY in the top 10 or 20. One of the Ch I use is hip tested excellent, the other 2 are NOT tested either and were from 2 separate show families.
If you follow the entire post, you'll see that Redyre was responding to someone else who had made that statement about the boxers.
I'm not a part of any cult or fan club, but Redyre has said that these are prelim tests and that she is going to do more. She has also said that she may have to rethink her decision if there are any changes in the second set of results.
I am super sorry. I think I need to get off again for a while. 10 minutes and I am freaking out. I never behave like this and I see that I am coming from a really defensive place. Like I am being attacked and have to defend my every belief or action.
Bottom line, I don't think there are any of the 'breeders' on here that are trying to do anything mean or wrong. I think we are all just trying to do what we feel is right.
We all love our dogs, are proud of them. I can tell you when things are said about my dogs (which are the closest things I love besides my family) I not only get angry, I get very very hurt. Like someone just insulted my child.
If you look at my postings before all this drama all I have ever done was try to help people fix problems that I have experienced. I don't know everything, I will be learning about dogs and horses until I take my last breath. Those who think they know everything, stop learning and soon know nothing.
Thank you to the several people that have contacted me from here off line. I appreciate your kind words and support. Now I have to go take care of my kids and animals and be at peace. Hope everyone does the same.
According to this statement by red testing doesnt matter. and according to her little follower scary dog it does. WoW.Guess SD wasnt in the cult back then ********************************************** I would not take SD too seriously since she thinks breeders recommend Purina because they "sponsor" dog shows. SD says she's "no expert" on boxers--and she must not be, since Ali's are placing so well at shows.
Any health fault that makes a dog not a healthy pet--and so many times you hear of joint problems of all kinds in large breeds--certainly makes that dog unsuitable to be a show dog--no matter how pretty.
***Edited By: PixiedustPapillons on 12/2/2005 12:21:07 PM*** Reason: sp
I feel bad for the dog. Redyre, do you have joint problems??? I DO! They hurt! I have a minor problem in my wrist, mainly in my right wrist, which is good since I am a lefty, I guess. Nonetheless, it hurts, especially when it's cold. I also have a major problem in my jaw, which has required surgery, therapy and medication. It hurts like nothing else!!! Now, I don't walk on my wrists, but I couldn't imagine walking my pregnant butt around on a bad knee, even a mildly bad elbow. Please reconsider this. I'm not trying to be rude, but joint problems are painful, and added weight or stress makes them worse. I'm sure your dog is beautiful, but I believe you are one of the supporters of the "there are enough pet quality dogs...just look at your local shelter" attitude. If it's taken you 20 years to get a dog thats worthy of breeding, then what's another two?
I have to agree with Alicat again. She was slammed a while back because she didn't do uneccessary testing on her dogs hips that have NEVER shown any signs of any problems with their hips. You KNOW that your dog has a problem, and choose to breed her anyway? Sense the hypocrisy?
I have to agree with Alicat again. She was slammed a while back because she didn't do uneccessary testing on her dogs hips that have NEVER shown any signs of any problems with their hips. You KNOW that your dog has a problem, and choose to breed her anyway? Sense the hypocrisy************************************************************************************8
Alicat did test for what she considered important to her breed--and to her credit, she says she will NOT breed any dog with health isssues. I see many jump on a person they percieve as a "byb" when that person says this '" my dog is beautiful and has a great temper and my friends think she is beautiful and I want to breed her" Well, I see the same thing when a person says "my dog is beautiful (because a judge likes the look in the ring) and has lots of attributes that other's like and want--so I will call this health problem minor and that makes me better than them"
My 2cents.....I have owned Rotties in the past myself 2 of which were before anyone knew what the breed even was back in the early 1970's. Both came from a well known show kennel back then. Toby had elbow & hip dysplasia. We sent him back & got Max who ended up with hip dysplasia. Goes to show it's been a major problem even long ago. Then 15 plus years ago I bought one from another show kennel on the west coast & he died from interception where the intestines telescopes inside of each other. (Common in Rotties so is Parvo) I personally would NEVER breed a dysplastic dog no matter how mild. There are so many other problems with Rotties as well....cancer being the # 1 killer in Rotties! Not only should Rotties be OFA certified clear, but also don't breed if there is cancer in the line, or OCD (Osteochondritis dessicans a growth disorder in the joints), PRA (Progressive retinal atrophy), Heart defects, & Hypoththyroidism. Rotties unfortunately as much as I love the sweet lug heads, I will never own another due to the poor breeding practices that continues today, producing dogs with major health issues. They have been ruined from breeders who aren't doing enough to discourage the many health issues that exist today. It happened to Cockers, Labs, Dobies, German Shepherds just to name a few ruined breeds.
I guess I didn't understand what preliminary meant. I always thought preliminary meant introductory, first round, precursory. I always thought it suggested that there was more to follow. Huh I guess it's just me. Doesn't grade 1 mean Minimal Arthosis. I was told that minimal meant smallest in amount or degree. Guess my teachers were wrong about that too. Oh and I thought red said she would do more testing and then make an informed decision.
BTW Pixiedust, I NEVER said ALL breeders recommend Purina. My mother's friend who breeds dals recommends Wellness. I do know of quite a few breeders who recommend Purina. My question is why recommend Purina when there are other brands that are much better for dogs. Anyway, what do you recommend and what do you feed your dogs pixie?
Doesn't it make all of you wonder why vets recommend Science Diet. Who here believes that vets recommend Science Diet because it's the best dog food in the country? Raise your hand guys.
minniyar ........ i have not read anywhere where a dog who prelim'd positive for ED/DJD ever became normal by the age of two. if they have it they will always have it. it is not like hips that can change by the age of 2 for better or worse. if there is something that supports your statements please provide it , i would like to read it.
Breeding is about improvement, and should be always.
please explain how you are bettering your line by choosing to breed a dysplastic dog ?
One cannot base breeding decisions on one test and one test only, particularly when results have been as unpredictable and equivocal as elbow results in my breed.
i totally do not understand how you can say this. there is DJD all throughout pennys lines. there are more dogs in her lines untested for it then are tested for it and it is showing up. breeding her is going to keep it in the line not eliminate it. wouldnt part of bettering the breed be trying to eliminate it from your line ?
I would wonder how many who are on the "Redyre Rotties is irresponsible for planning to use a dog with one elbow DJD1" bandwagon show dogs and plan breedings using health testing as a determining factor.
i do not breed but one day i may. questioning and challenging ones views is how people/i learn. i've been around enough people who can talk a good game but when it comes down to it the rules change for them. i also work with enough people who do show and who do breed. i have seen them spay and neuter their dogs for more minimal problems then joint problems ......... even when specialists couldnt give them a solid answer on whether or not the problem was congenital or inheredited and could be passed down to their offspring.
Not one prospective puppy buyer or stud dog owner has expressed any concern whatsoever with her elbow rating.
have you given these people insight into what the future may hold for them and their dog ? have you told them that by the age of five they may have a dog who is in pain and walks with a limp? that they may need to put them on drugs for their life to reduce the pain and the cost of these drugs, especially for a dog of a rotties size ? have you warned them of the heartbreak they may face in the future if it gets so bad for their dog that the dog will have to be euthanized ?
today at work we put to sleep a rottie. she came in to be evaluated for an ACL tear. upon radiographs we found bone cancer in her hip. do you have any idea how heartbreaking that was for us, never mind the owner ? after we listened to the owner this morning telling us how wonderful this dog was. that they had rescued her from a horrible situation and they were so happy she was such a great dog. a velcro dog ......... she was this mans shadow. she was also only 5 years old .......
this is why it frustrates me to no end when people do not regard the tests ... or do not do the tests at all ........ because i have to deal with the owners and children who are devastated that their dog ..... who should have lived a lot longer then it did ........ has to be put to sleep because of something that could have been prevented. the pain the animal is in doesnt compare to the pain that is left behind in the families that loved their pet. both suffer needlessly when things are not taken as important enough.
***Edited By: scout1 on 12/2/2005 10:00:14 PM*** Reason: typo
I never answer any of these post because they usually turn to arguements, but when people start putting down members dogs I agree with alicat1. These dogs are like are kids whether you show them or not. We should not be criticizing how the pets look in pictures. It's very cruel to criticize peoples animals (family).
***Edited By: beaglecookie on 12/2/2005 10:31:00 PM*** Reason: xx
Maybe I made the mistake. I thought I read in one post take someone was criticizing a picture they posted of their show dog saying it didn't look like show dogs and only pet quality. I hope I am wrong, because that would of hurt my feeling if they were talking about my babies. I found it it's post #13.
***Edited By: beaglecookie on 12/2/2005 10:54:40 PM*** Reason: add
The bitches she is breeding are pets, and should be spayed or neutered.
All puppies are cute.
joined: 1/30/2004 posts: 10296
msg #13 IP: Logged 5:58:10 PM 11/9/2005 for educational purposes i think you should look at what would be considered a good boxer breeder so hopefully you can physically see the differences and not just go on someones word :
do a comparison of your own re looks, guarantees, etc.
ALI ....... in all seriousness a little constructive criticism. if you want to be taken seriously in what you do ......... you really need to rethink your website layout. it looks like someones grammar school project ... with the cartoony dog and cat on it and the horrible spelling errors. if you want to be considered a professional then your website needs to reflect professionalism.
***Edited By: scout1 on 11/9/2005 5:59:59 PM*** Reason: spelling
From sitting on the sidelines on this one, I think I'm going to finally respond, lol.
I think the point that a lot of the members are trying to make in regards to this testing debate is that, if you feel that you can give advice to others in regards to ethical breeding practices, then you better be able to practice what you preach.
I don't think this would be an issue at all if Red hadn't preached to so many people about ethical breeding practices. But because she has, it seems to have put her in a bad position because she *seems* to be doing something that she looks down on others for. If it's bad to breed a dog that doesn't pass all his/her testing, then that should go for any dog. There shouldn't be exceptions. Other great attributes still do not disguise the fact that there is a flaw.
As for Katz, the difference there is that she was not a knowledgeable breeder when she bred her dogs. That doesn't make it okay, I don't think anyone is saying that, but it does mean that she was inexperienced and did learn from her actions. And because she is more knowledgeable now, she no longer does it. Whereas Red is very knowledgeable and should know better. I believe there is a big difference in doing something and then learning that it may not have been right...and doing something and learning that it may not have been right but doing it anyway WHILE telling others not to do it.
***Edited By: Huntersmom on 12/3/2005 2:26:29 AM*** Reason: ...
Who are we to say it is unethical when according to her breed club it isn't unethical? Did any of us study the breed for any length of time? Don't you think that a rott club would know more about this issue than common folks?