Very well put HM! I also think that Red has a great deal of knowledge in her chosen breed and has a lot to share. I find it a shame that more often then not it is done in a very rude and condescending manner. It is not necessary to make others feel stupid and small to teach them. I must say that the attitude I feel pouring from many of her replies reminds me of why I choose not to show my dogs. It’s not because of a lack of quality and breeding in my dogs, it’s many of the people I have met who are involved with the show world.

I was personally offended that she (breeder and owner of Rotties) chose to correct me (former breeder and owner of Pyrs) on the appearance of my own chosen breed’s appearance and breed standard. I can also “copy and paste”, but chose rather to post actual photos, to which I received no reply.

On OFA going from bad to good, I have to say that I know of one case where a preliminary OFA went from fair to good. That was a case where the bitch sustained a KNOWN injury to the leg/hip and had inflammation in the joint (hence the preliminary checking). One hip was excellent, the other (injured one) fair .

Scout, Icy and few others may remember my concern over this as it was one of my pups in question. 6 months passed, the injury healed, recent exam has shown that the inflammation has gone and the hip is now on par with the uninjured hip. She will have one more check in April, when she turns 2. The vet conducting the tests is an orthopedic specialist and is an expert at conducting OFA exams for large/giant breed dogs for the AKC. Did I mention that this bitch is spayed and will not be used for breeding or show?

I also know that there are Pyrs, both dogs and bitches who CH in the ring with diplaystic hips that go on to become breeders. Do I know them personally? No, but I have friends very involved in the show world who do and can name not only the breeder(s), but the dog or bitch in question.

I guess my question would be this, if a bitch has a known fault that is in actuality a health issue down the line and that is not cause for spaying, which of the excellent attributes being “off” WOULD be cause for removing her from a breeding program? Color? Bite? Foot placement? Size? None of which are health issue (with the exception of a serious bite problem).

Scary, let's pretend for just a moment that you have saved up your pennies and have FINALLY purchased the dog of your dreams.

Since it's a large breed, lifespan is shorter and they are prone to certain ailments that smaller breeds are not prone to. How would you feel to later find that your much loved pet is going to spend the last 5 or more years in pain and perhaps partially crippled from something the breeder KNEW there was a risk of before that breeding ever took place?

To be told that it's a risk when you're looking at that cute and cuddly pup is one thing. To have to see your pet suffer and deal with the reality later is something else entirely.

***Edited By: pyrmom on 12/3/2005 7:29:22 AM***
Reason: oops

Scary--what makes you think that any breed club is NOT made up of "common folk"?
This kind of thinking is exactly why there are so many health problems in purebred dogs. It's the "say one thing to those we don't like and do another to win in the ring" approach.
As for the pictures--yes, alicat was bashed--but her dogs are starting to place, and the show she was at is a big show. No one should ever evaluate a person's dogs by photos--especially if they are not asked.
Anyone can read books and copy and paste from the web--it is in the " doing" where the knowledge turns to wisdom.
RR has not had successs in breeding her own rotts. (her own public admission)
I do say a person can learn a lot from failures and keep trying--but until you succeed--all you have learned is failure.

*bump for Red's response

I personally owned a dog who went from hips graded MILD to hips graded EXCELLENT inside of 90 days.

This dogs' films were resubmitted after redoing the exrays, with full disclosure. I spoke to Keller myself about it several times, making sure that the previous results were made known to the orthopedic vets who were looking at the subsequent ones.

Keller could never explain to me how any dog can go from mild to excellent in 90 days, nor could he tell me which rating was the correct one.

I am very glad that I am not now responsible for making the breeding decisions on this animal, because I would NOT have bred it.

Elbows are a different kettle of fish in my breed, and I am not the only person who holds this opinion. Those who are far more experienced than I have collected years of data from many different countries where elbow screening is REQUIRED before breeding, and have come up with the same opinion.

Even the OFA website states that it may not be realistic to exclude all animals graded DJD grade 1 from a breeding program if the failure rate is above 30 percent.

Rottweilers are at 41%. This is not 41% of the general population. This is 41% of the dogs who are having elbows submitted to the OFA. Many estimate that as much as SEVENTY percent of the breed is affected worldwide.

It is a statistical impossibility to eliminate 70% of the breeding population and still maintain type and genetic diversity.

Perhaps you should all join Rottie-L and read the archives of the discussion on this issue that is going on right now.

There are VERY few people who would choose not to breed this bitch.

I understand the risks, and there ARE risks.

I am willing to accept the responsibility for whatever happens.

While I still find your pontificating to others and excusing yourself an inexcusable double standard, I do thank you for your reply.

First of all, unethical means not conforming to approved standards of professional behavior. Red is not in violation of her parent club's standards. So how is this behavior unethical?

Second, why do people make references to breed club standards only when it is convenient for them? If the rules support their argument then it's fine and dandy but when the rules do not help them make their point or goes against their beliefs then the rules are no good and who cares because they are only made by "common folks."


Here the breed club is quoted and the people say it should be followed and it is the authority in breeding but in Red's case breed club standards should be ignored, why?

http://www.terrificpets.com/forum/1119.asp
messages # 5, 12, 26, 28

I am willing to accept the responsibility for whatever happens.
********************************************
So maybe the boxer breeder you bashed was also willing to acept responsibility for her breedings.
My personal opinion is that this is a cop-out and i have heard the same from a top pap breeder who bashes lots of new people. She preached the testing thing like a religion--but when cornered, admitted she did not test all her dogs and if they had PRA and she thought they were worthy to breed anyway--then she would keep them all and be "responsible" for them.
All I can say is why is it ethical to breed ANY dog--pet or show--that will end up crippled or blind--even if the breeder keeps them all? That does not change the quality of life for the affected dog.
(and I know the breeders do NOT keep these dogs--they place them quietly as pets). One breeder even had a pet buyer sign a contract that they would not say anything about the dog's health--caused a big fight.

***Edited By: PixiedustPapillons on 12/3/2005 12:31:48 PM***
Reason: sp

Scary, while you have been so busy rushing to Red's defense, you have failed to answer the question I asked you about purchasing a pet bred out of a parent with a known genetic defect.

As for Club standards, I don't seem to recall my mentioing them at all.

I did ask specific questions, none of which were answered.

As for Club standards, I don't seem to recall my mentioing them at all.
********************************************
Another "gray" area in my list of what makes a responsible breeder. Most clubs do not have any real strict standards for breeding.
Many do, however, have such a 'closed" membership that many cannot join.
While this is nice for some, again, I do not see where being a club member is needed to be a good breeder.

(I just received a ltter about this issue this AM.
ANd I was an ALL breed club member, a board member of a rare breed, newsletter editor for the rare breed, member of several foreign and international papillon/phalene clubs--been there and done that)

i dont think there is ANY excuse for breeding an animal with a known genetic defect. period. if that is the case, then why bother to even test at all ?and no one is going to except any form of education when they are made to feel inferior. its great that people gain knowledge of their breed of choice, but it doesnt make them any better than anyone else that has the same breed and truly loves and cares for their pet. none of us are "born" knowing all there is to know about animals, we learn as we go. our ears will be much more open to learning from someone that teaches as our equal and not act as though we are so far below them that we are priviliged to even breath the same air !

First, I did not say she should breed Penny or she shouldn't. The decision is not up to me. I believe red is educated, smart, and she knows what she is doing. She has studied the breed for many years. I sincerely believe she loves her breed and wants to better her breed.
Second, how many of us have studied rottweilers? I have done some very light reading on this subject recently. From what I have gathered approximately 3/4 of the rott population in the world is afflicted with bad elbows. I have also read that even if a rott has normal elbows it's next to impossible that the generations before him have normal elbows too. There is usually someone in the line with bad elbows. So isn't it safe to say that even if Penny had good elbows she can still have puppies with bad elbows? It is also safe to say that if she is bred with a normal elbowed male she can have normal elbowed puppies? If you only breed dogs with normal elbows you are decreasing the diversity of the gene pool which can actually be more tragic for the breed and have worse results.

not act as though we are so far below them that we are priviliged to even breath the same air !
*********************************************
Dusty, you are repeating the words of many others who have had discussions with RR.
She has her opinion of how she does things--which is fine. But she is not "THE' icon of responsible breeding that others should strive for. And other's are not irresponsible because they have a different view.
I have seen statements by RR (on this site) that there is only ONE way to breed ethical and responsible--and that is "her" way. total nonsense.

red you never answered my question ...... do you or do you not give your puppy buyers insight into what buying an elbow dysplastic dog means for the future of that dog and family ?

do you think they would still buy a puppy from you if they knew ?

what faults in the rottweiler breed are significant enough to you and your club to exclude breeding a dog ?

scary, your way of thinking is EXACTLY why there are so many dogs out there now with genetic defects. and no it doesnt mean that there will be no pups born without the defect, but it does mean that the possibility will be greater . so why breed any dog with this defect at all ?

scarydog wrote :

"So isn't it safe to say that even if Penny had good elbows she can still have puppies with bad elbows? It is also safe to say that if she is bred with a normal elbowed male she can have normal elbowed puppies?"


if you had read what i originally posted you would know that breeding a normal elbow to a normal elbow produces a 12 percent chance of dysplastic elbows

if you breed a normal elbow to an affected grade 1 elbow ....... it increases those risks almost 3 fold........

so no it is not safe to say that AT ALL .

Isn't the population of defected dogs only going to increase if you continue to breed them? Yes this may be a problem in many rotts, but isn't that the whole point of betterment of the breed? To help make the breed better?
You many have to cut the gene pool down a bit, but isn't that worth the health of your dogs?
What does Penny have that is so great that it overrides this genetic defect? What can she contribute to the rottweiler breed that is worth putting an entire litter through possible elbow problems? I am honestly curious why this is a problem that is socially acceptable in the rottie world? The fact that 70-75 percent of the dogs are affected doesn't seem to be a very good excuse to me. You said that 40 percent of dogs that were tested showed no elbow problems......well at least there are some Rottie breeders out there doing something right. JMO as always.

dusty, how do you know my way of thinking? I have said time and time again that I don't know if she should breed Penny but I do trust her judgement. I really believe she has only good intentions. I don't know the answer because I am not an expert and I never claimed to be. So please don't blame me for all the genetic problems in dogs because I don't even breed dogs.

If it were up to me, I would set a guideline for breeding and I would make every breeder follow it. It will be the law.

1. Champion dogs only
2. Passed all tests with flying colors
3. Breeder must take any dog back for any reason. It is the law.

If a dog is not show quality it has to be fixed at 6 months no ifs ands or buts about it. If it fails any genetic test, it should be fixed.
Only people with an expensive license and can breed dogs because we all know that good breeding costs money. Anyone caught breeding a dog illegally will be punished with prison time and hefty fines.


I rescue dogs. I hate that people breed dogs like crazy and don't get their dogs fixed. They have puppies all the time like it's supposed to be normal. Are these rules reasonable and enforceable not really but I sure which it would come true.

Since we do not live in a perfect society, we have breed clubs. These clubs are comprised of knowlegeable individuals whose primary goal is to improve and preserve their beloved breed.

This is not a perfect world people. If you only bred rotts with normal elbowed grandparents and parents you would kill the breed.

and if people keep breeding dogs with genetic defects, you will always have innocent puppies that suffer the consequenses.

Entropian is a very bad problem in the Chow Chow Breed. HOWEVER, it is okay to show and breed a dog that has had entropian, as long as it is not severe and it is fixed. Actually, if you talk to most chow breeders they will tell you that it is very common for a chow to get entropian and most WILL NOT guarantee against it because there has been thoughts that it is not hereditary. Does that make it right to ignore that and try not to breed out that problem? I have been very fortunate that my pup hasn't gotten it, but I spent time looking for someone who has had NO history of EVER having a puppy with entropian. I also got a guarantee on health and ALL degenerative and congenital defects.
After Kaia, there was no way I would EVER wish anyone to have to go through what we did. She had Pituitary Dwarfism, rare genetic defect, as well as SEVERE luxating patellas in both knees. Although Kaia was a mix of unknown background, I would hope that no person should ever have to go into a dog like that knowingly. And I would hope that no one would EVER breed a dog with known problems. It is the worst feeling in the world to know there is nothing you can do to save your dog.

BTW, I did a simple search and found quite a few Rotts that have tested OFA Elbow Excellent. Don't know how they are in other fields but alot were champion show dogs.

Any disqualifying fault.

Any temperament issue.

any non OFA hip rating.

Any missing tooth.

Any abnormal heart or eye findings.

Any elbow rating indicating ununited anconeal process, fragmented coronoid process, or Osteo Chondritis Dessicans, or any dog who has at any time demonstrated front end lameness or soreness, regardless of OFA or exray findings.

This is the short list that immediately comes to mind that would exclude any dog from breeding consideration by me.