These are exerpts from the posts on this subject on various lists where this is being discussed.
The question asked was, Would you or would you not breed an otherwise excellent specimen who was Grade 1 in one elbow?
Some lists are Rottweiler specific, some are not....
I think it's acceptable if the partner's pedigree has a good depth of testing clean for elbows - meaning at least half or better of each litter tested, with a better than average pass rate. Until our breed gets a better passing rate, it is probably not reasonable to exclude everything that does not pass both elbows.
we will accept a Grade I dog, either bilateral or unilateral, IF it has proven itself sound by working at advanced levels. If it has not, we'll generally pass.
If they did NOT find Fragmented, UAP, or OCD I would breed him to a bicth who was normal elbows. OFA has been giving a number of dogs DJD in one elbow lately without any other findings. From what I understand ,most DJD without findings would pass in Canada also.
That would be a little hard since it is unilateral, check to see if they think it came from an injury if they can trace it. If they can't trace it to an injury them it would be a c---- shoot, wouldn't it. jmo
I would, have, and am going to again :0)
I guess the question really is, "Why do the exam if you don't care about the result?" If the health clearances aren't important enough to follow, then why bother doing them in the first place? I don't understand this scenario... If the future of the breed is important enough to do the health clearances then of course they should be adhered to. Why just do the ostrich and stick your head in the sand? Would you breed to a dog that only had one bad hip but the other was fine? No, you wouldn't. So what's the difference in the elbows?
The problem right now is the percentage of Rottweilers passing elbows and the gene pool. If you decide to breed her I would hope you would only breed her to a dog with passing elbows.
Until our breed gets a better passing rate, it is probably not reasonable to exclude everything that does not pass both elbows
I bred to a marvelous dog that has grade 1 elbows, but who was and is totally sound (proven by working at advanced levels not just showing in conformation). I do think elbows are a big question mark in many ways. It seems that some grade 1 dogs are affected pain/lameness/ unwillingness to work), and get worse over time, while others not only are not affected, but don't show any additional degeneration over time. The bitch I bred to the grade 1 dog had normal elbows as did her mother, father and three littermates...her puppies will be 2 in February so it will be interesting to see how their elbows look. I'm not sure that I would ever choose to do a breeding where neither parent had cleared, and I might wait until the dog was a bit older before breeding just to make sure that everything held up. I do think the most important thing is that everyone involved knows the results of ALL tests. I sure wish the OFA was a totally open database (or that everyone who sent in x-rays signed to have good or bad results published!) as that would sure be helpful in looking at things like this.
I'm not familar with the specifics of elbow grading, however, I have some thinking I would like to pass along. At the AKC-CHF Parent Club Health Conference, they talked about not removing dogs from breeding unless they have life threatening diseases themselves. The geneticists talked about using dogs that are rated with HD, if they are not lame, only breeding to a line of dogs that have not had an affected HD dog and one not rated with HD. As with HD, I'm sure that ED has a high percentage of cause associated with environment not just genetics. Without knowing anything else about the dog as you stated, I would use him, to a line of dogs that do not have elbow problems and at a MINIMUM no elbow problems in the last two and preferably three generations of the bitch in every relation you can find.
(I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE MORE IMPORTANT THOUGHTS ON THE SUBJECT BELOW)
I would NOT rush to get rid of a bitch with mild dysplasia that is unilateral. I believe it is important to not limit the gene pool, especially if this bitch is typy, sound, good temperament and has passed all her other health clearances. Obviously it would be VERY unwise of us for the future of the breed to eliminate all but 30-50% of our breeding stock. That will only cause bottlenecking and the appearance of some other defect down the road.
The ortho vet I used to work for was fond of quoting a study on elbows. 100 rottweilers were xrayed. Around 50 of them at xray evidence of ED. After the study was completed all 100 of them were found to have ED upon necropsy. ALL OF THEM. There are just a lot of things we can't see in this joint, and I think that some of them are potentially worse than the things we *can* see. Until we have a better way of looking at the elbow joint, we are going to have make educated guesses. There are way too many false clears at this point, to throw out dogs that have one DJD1 elbow and are workhorses with no problems. I would try to breed clear to clear if possible, but would not dismiss a clear to a unilateral DJD1 at all, given my own experiences.
I did that breeding once and did not like the results that I got. The elbow problems were seen in too many of the offspring. I will not do it again... well... never say never but I don't forsee ever doing it again if there are any good sound options at all. I don't judge anyone for what they decide to do and some tend to have much better luck with it.
I would look at ALL aspects of the dog in question. If the dog had much more to offer than the negatives,I would not count the dog out.I would also take into consideration the dogs activity level.Is the dog worked in tracking,hiking,SCH etc?I think some degeneration would occur.
The difference is that 41% of Rottweilers examined have elbow dysplasia, according to OFA. 41% of Rottweilers examined do NOT have HD. You think that almost half of the population should just be tossed from the breeding pool?
It was my understanding that a grade 1 is not dysplastic but looks as if it may become dysplastic at a future date. I know several people who got grade 1 from OFA and then went to orthopedic specialists who said the elbows were completely normal, and wrote statements to that effect.
I personally don't see a problem with breeding to a dog with a grade 1 elbow. There are many things to consider when doing so ie: history of offspring passing, history in pedigree of dogs passing etc.
I have not bred yet but I am thinking on the lines that if my dogs are not at the top of the scales of health clearances I just may never breed them.
It would have to depend on the rest of the health clearances. I do not believe that grade 1 is a problem depending on age and activity. That is per the orthopedic vet who says what is normal at 1 and 2 might look different at three and four. If the dog was otherwise healthy and passed its certifications I would more than likely breed to the dog. I am thinking of one particular dog right now that makes me swoon and he has a grade 1 elbow.
***Edited By: redyre_rotties on 12/3/2005 1:20:34 PM*** Reason: ---
Okay, I know a dog who is unilateral DJD1. He's been asymptomatic his entire life and he's nearly 10 years old, still not a symptom. He's the sire of my pup.
So, PLEASE do your health clearances, PLEASE LISTEN to THOSE HEALTH clearances, YOU, the breeder, paid for them, BE HONEST about the health clearances.....that is the best you can do and all a puppy owner can ask for
Personally, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot poll, I don't care how good looking the dog is.
My vote...NO,,I wouldn't throw a great dog/bitch out for DJD 1
First of all I would recommend that you get another opinion with OVC. I would also look at the litter mates and other dogs within the pedigree. Personally I feel it is important to look at the WHOLE picture/package as per say and NOT throw the baby out with the bath water. In the case of a Stud dog if I liked the dog, and whole package, yes I would use him. In the case of a bitch same things in place, I would make sure the lines I bred to were pretty solid.
To me, it is mild and if there is no history of lameness in the pedigree or with the dog, breed him to a solid OFA Elbow bitch (if they exsist in your breed).
Can't work with one Grade I elbow? While I respect XXXXXXXXX right to only use cleared dogs and commend XXX for it, it's misleading to suggest that dogs cannot work unless they have cleared the OFA for elbows. Below is a list of *ours* who have worked happily and successfully with one or both Grade I elbows, without the aid of so much as an aspirin. I know that there are many many others as well. ( A list of 14 dogs with conformation and advanced working titles follows this post)
I'd breed to a dog with Level 1 elbows BEFORE I would breed to a dog who has blown a cruciate. A dog with a blown cruciate has already proven he/she has a structural issue. Level 1 elbows are still questionable in my books.
So, it's not something I've personally done, though after doing some research, I am learning that a diagnosis of DJD1 does not mean a dog needs to be automatically pulled from a breeding program.
I would rather have a Rottweiler that has DJD1 (non life threatening) and oozes "breed type" than a rottweiler that looks like a Doberman.
I personally would never breed any dogs with DJD, even a grade I
I sure wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water
I may only choose to breed all clear dogs, but I don't think I'm in the position to judge others for not wanting to exclude 50% of the breeding population up front (I just want to be sure there is somewhere to go in five years).
Sounds so similar to what the orthopedist I used in NY said about elbows. He said normal for their age might show some changes so he did not recommend doing them. And he is also a PennHip vet and a diplomate. Getting a normal rating was slim and meant little.
XXXXXXXX has been worked hard his whole life. He goes herding, he jumps full height, he pulls me off my feet in tracking. He has no problem with pulling me in the cart. He is 4 1/2 and has never been lame or refused to do anything a day in his life. OFA may say his joints are not perfect, the fact is his joints are fine. What OFA is lowering his ratings for is for "artifacts" outside of the actual joint. OFA admits that those artifacts do not affect his movement, but since it isn't textbood, they gotta do something and that is give a fair instead of a good and DJD1 instead of normal. I did call of OFA and that is what they told me.
What one clearance says is Grade 1, another will say Clear (ie. OFA vs OVC). A lot of dogs that fail OFA with Grade 1 Elbows, pass OVC with Elbows Clear. Now what? Also, age does affect. I xrayed a dog at 2 years of age.....hips were Excellent, Elbows Clear. At 8 1/2 years of age, I did them again..........Still OFA Excellent, Elbows Grade 1. Makes you wonder how many clear dogs end up with Grade 1, or more.
Count me in on this aspect of it too. ( > I would rather have a Rottweiler that has DJD1 (non life threatening) and oozes "breed type" than a rottweiler that looks like a Doberman.)
Excellent points on all sides...just shows how hard it is to make a breeding decision no matter what breed you're in! Good on you for thinking and talking it out. Some may challenge you, but I find that really help you sort out the decision and feel comfortable (or not ;o). At the end of the day, our breedings are not just a collection of little pieces of paper that say one part is healthy and one part is less so - it's the whole that matters, and then a whole lotta luck.
I would be very hesitant to doing that. But as was stated, there is an extremely high percentage of Rotts with this and as this is a mild case, rest of dog extremely nice; then possibly but the lineage behind both sire and dam would have to be researched very extensively specifically for elbow dysplasia. Very tough decision to make.
I would never use a dog with any form of Displasha in the elbose The only way i would use one is one is if its out of my own breedings that i no the history behind it and if not my own breeding i would be checking the ofa data base to see if there is a patern that the dog would be passing it on and usualy you can see it from a mile away Naw if i used one with one bad elbow the other elbow would have to be exalent and it would have to have excelent hips and it would have to be proven that it is more linked to an injory then it just being a bad elbow besids that i would never ever breed a dog with ed this breed is vary front hevy and its inportant to breed only clear ed
My opinion is there is more to the dog than just it's elbows... and DJD 1 in one elbow isn't much of a change from clear anyway. If she were correct in every other way, I'd breed her, but just to dogs who were clear in both. JMO
I have one who has great hips but has one Grade 1 elbow. I just didn't feel comfortable at the time breeding her so I spayed her. I have regretted that decision ever since. She's never limped a day even after doing agility. She is a beautiful bitch.
These are excerpts from each post that had an opinion on the subject, pro or con.
I don't let other's opinions make my breeding decisions for me. I have a responsibility to the dogs first, that they have the best quality of life I can give them. And then to the owners of my pups--that they have healthy dogs.
red you never answered my question ...... do you or do you not give your puppy buyers insight into what buying an elbow dysplastic dog means for the future of that dog and family ?
do you think they would still buy a puppy from you if they knew ?
what faults in the rottweiler breed are significant enough to you and your club to exclude breeding a dog ?
all you are really stating with all this is that amongst rottweiler fanciers it is an acceptable risk. my guess is that your answers to my first two questions is a no.
i would not find this to be an acceptable risk speaking from a puppy buyers standpoint. i want longevity when i buy a puppy. while sh*t happens ...... i will safeguard myself against it as best i can and that would mean not buying from someone who knowingly breeds an inheritable condition. we are not talking about a maltese here that can be carried if it becomes lame and cannot walk.
Of course I divulge this information. Your attempts to insult me are annoying, and contrary to free public discourse, which can be educational to people.
It is clear in my contract that I do not guarantee against elbow dysplasia, and why, and of course I would divulge this to any and all people who might be interested in a puppy. In fact, one of the first things I bring up when someone contacts me is that this dog does not, and likely WILL not have an elbow number.
I put in another post what will disqualify a dog, with no discussion, from any breeding consideration by me.
Sometimes people have other things to do than hang around this forum and answer on demand all of your questions.
I thought, and I may be wrong on this, that you said at one point, that a "good breeder" should guarantee against all genetic defects as well as provide other guarantees for health. Am I wrong on that, if I am forgive me. But I just thought that was a big part of breeding. Although I did not do my testing on my dogs, I DID tell everone of my puppy buyers that I would take the dog back for ANY reason as well as pay any medical bills that came from a genetic disease that was brought on due to my breeding(if proven by a vet). I still stand by that statement until the life of those pups are over with. I also made sure that all pups that I bred were either fixed before they left or after they were placed, but I KNOW that they are all fixed. I have not had any dogs returned nor have I had to pay a cent for any of my pups for any medical issues.
So do you have so much doubt in your lines that you cannot offer a guarantee for elbows?
I would hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. If the dogs behind your bitch have stayed sound into old age (without "help"), and the dogs behind the stud dog you are considering have done the same, as well as the bitch herself and the stud dog himself at their current ages--I would be much more inclined to do the breeding.
Why is it that people state their dogs x-rays were submitted to OVC and failed and yet passed OFA and vice versa?Is the method of evaluation valid enough that we remove dogs based on one opinion from a breeding program? I think a much bigger concern in our breed is heart defects,followed by cancer.I lost XXXXXX at 4 and a half years,that to me is unacceptable.He didn't die of elbow problems.
After all the years of study you have done on the breed, you should be able to defend your own breeding decisions. I don't need pap breeders telling me it is ok to breed health problems so long as the dog has other qualities that will get it a win in the ring. I have my personal ethics and I don't need to call for backup to stand on my decisions.
I would replace any dog I sold as a show prospect who was graded any worse in the elbows than DJD1, or any show prospect who showed ANY forehand lameness before age 2 and OFAs, and I would require these animals to be altered and not used for breeding.
I would replace any pet dog who showed lameness or difficulty at an early age. My contract states 24 months, but if a pet owner contacted me with a dog having issues before age 5, I would likely replace the dog if they wished.
I can and will stand behind any dog I produce. I cannot guarantee genetics, or that any dog will pass any health screening test, regardless of the status of sire and dam.
Is the method of evaluation valid enough that we remove dogs based on one opinion from a breeding program? ******************************************** now is this not the same thing the boxer breeder told you--and yet you preached she was a bad breeder and her dogs should be sp/neutered. Double standard to me.
So Pixie, is selecting dogs for their excellent breed type, temperament, movement, intelligence etc is selecting for what will win in the ring?
Should we not, as breeders, be careful of keeping the marvelous qualities of type and temperament that make our breeds unique? How is this selecting for what will win in the ring?
Do you make breeding decisions based on one aspect of a dog?
If, realistically, 3/4 of your breed was affected with a trait that was undesireable, could you eliminate that portion of your breed and still have healthy individuals of proper type, and enough to keep the gene pool diversified?
Are you saying that polling people more experienced than I, and using their opinions as part of a decision making process in determining which dogs to use for breeding is not a wise thing to do? That is is "letting others make breeding decisions" for me?
I have detailed several times my thought processes in deciding to use this bitch for breeding.
Just read back, Pixie, if you go over it several times it might sink in.
I personally, in my own opinion, do not rank DJD 1 elbows as 'bad'. I know of many people, both personally and met through this and other lists, who show, breed and use elbow DJD1 rated dogs in obedience and agility. None has ever had a lame day in their life... I equate DJD1 elbows with a fair rating in hips. I do not believe the current rating system in elbows is adequate. It's basically pass or fail. In hips there's 'excellent', 'good', and 'fair' and fail has it's levels as well.. The only ratings in elbows are the degree of fail.
Now, this all being said, a rating of grade 1 in OCD, FCP and UAP, in my opinion should not be bred...
the OFA distinction between normal and abnormal elbows is actually more clearly defined than are the differences between fair and borderline hips. elbows are diagnosed as dysplastic when evidence of DJD is present as evidenced by osteophytes or sclerosis. it is not a gradual contnuim from normal ro abnormal in which minor differences might be interpreted as normal by one reader and abnormal by another. the degree of DJD present is the determiining factor in the grade of dysplasia. it is also important to understand that DJD is a finding which aids in the diagnosis of elbow dysplasia but the DJD itself is the secondary result of one or more of 3 distinct etiologies that make up the generalized description of elbow dysplasia. these are united anconeal process, fragmented coronoid process and osteochondrosis which may appear singularly or in combination.
is any different then this stated by you:
Now, this all being said, a rating of grade 1 in OCD, FCP and UAP, in my opinion should not be bred...
to me ofa is stating that any one or combination of them dictates ED/DJD ....... so in essence breeding a grade 1 is in fact breeding what you stated you will not breed.
have i misunderstood something ?
***Edited By: scout1 on 12/3/2005 2:32:10 PM*** Reason: typo
I have a puppy from a dog Grade 1 DJD in one elbow. His litter of 6 are some of the most sound, athletic puppies I have seen in a while. Their mother was grade 1 in one elbow, too. XXXXXXX is a powerhouse, has been a working puppy since 3 months of age, and has never had a single day of lameness. I don't have the expertise to comment on the reliablity of OFA's elbow evaluations, so can only speak from personal experience. These puppies are almost 14 months old.