Do you make breeding decisions based on one aspect of a dog?
If, realistically, 3/4 of your breed was affected with a trait that was undesireable, could you eliminate that portion of your breed *********************************************** When it comes to HEALTH--YES! I paid large sums for papillons with all superior traits but one-PL--and I did NOT breed that dog. Pretty is not enough! And he did not have it bad enough for anyone to see in the ring--but I knew and that was all that was needed to find a proper home for him. And I did not sell him. And YES, I did quit breeding the rare breed because they had hidden and very serious health problems that the breed clubs refused to admit--they called it one of the healthiest breeds and it was NOT. I worked with the owners and saw the heartache that heath prolems cause for both owner and dog and I Will not contribute to that just to get a dog that will win.
Correct me if I am wrong about this, but I was told from my vet, that even some bad cases of HD do not always show signs, Kaia was a grade 3 out of 4 in her luxating patellas, we had NO CLUE. She bounced around like a freaking Kangaroo. She was the most energatic dog you would have ever seen, and then one day it all changed. My dog was only a few months away from never being able to walk again. And we had no clue. We had her hips checked too, because my vet said it can be very bad and sometimes the dog shows no signs whatsoever. Just because a dog shows no signs, does not mean that it is not there. Even if it is minorally there, it is still there. We only had Kaia for six months, and that was not long enough. I would hate to EVER have to lose another dog due to genetic defects ever again. I KNOW that I will NEVER knowingly buy a dog that has even the smallest amount of anything that could potentially be a genetic or congenital defect. Kaia and Chloe were taken way before their time. It may take me forever to find a good sound dog(with the exception of looking at shelter dogs) but I still do not see how you can justify even the smallest amount of a horrible problem.
Can I make an observation? If y'all say no I could care less and go pee up an Iranian flag pole. Scout...we know each other, and I lOVE YOU in a sense that most here could not grasp. To the public.... our relationship... is relegated and dedicated to talking about good times, dogs, kids, movies, vet med and life experience...among other "stuff" on line. I have a sense of your value system and your soul...per our many spiritied conversations. You are kind, selfless and dedicated to our canine friends. Sometimes you come off as nutty and whacko....however this hasn't happened often(at TP anyway...;)and I am far nuttier than you could ever hope to be!!!!! ;). Scout take a vacation on me...you need it!!
RED. An observation. Take it down a notch or two or three. The canines you are affiliated with are WONDERFUL!!! We know that, you know that, and we are collectively enriched by your knowledge. People love their dogs. However my current dog is far better... more genetically sound, more intelligent, better looking, more athletic, more powerful, more obedient, more affectionate, calmer in the home, drools less, attacks pedophiles, attacks his night night blanket, loves kids, adores the elderly, can obey in French and Spanglish and can differentiate between Manchengo and Chamberet cheese. His elbows and hips are the bomb ta boot!!! Murphys law unfortunately can dictate bad happenings and I'm sure you know the plot of that Steinbeck novel that I'll fail to mention. BTW I'm only kidding. Be passionate. I love Rottweilers always will...as a previous owner of a wonderful example of this awesome breed i would never badmouth them or you.
Please don't be militant either of you....its good versus evil...and I need a vacation...gonna be at my ranch in Texas to sort all this out. All the tech words, the other big words, promises and threats plus conflicting alliances have me confuseded and thinking of buying one of dem der poos instead of a dog that I need a lawyer to interpret the contract, a geneticist to run a PCR and Dick telling me to bomb it!!!!
I've been reading this topic of elbows with interest and the "what to do" if this were me.
Let me tell you my experience with one of my dogs and elbow x-rays submitted. BTW--I also have Rottweilers.
A couple of years ago, I had one of my dogs OFA'd. When I looked at the x-rays, the hips looked great, but the elbow films were a little blurry. I submitted them anyway, and when I got the results back, he got Hips Good and Level 1 elbows.
A couple months later I took him back in for hopefully a better x-ray. The quality was a little better, but still not as crisp as I would have liked. The 2nd results ended up being 1 normal elbow and 1 still level 1.
Because of the way OFA distributes x-rays now, I firmly believe that if the quality of x-ray is not clear, that when they scan the films to send out, the findings may result in a "false negative".
This is why, if I have a dog with a Level 1, I would consider breeding them if they had something I needed for my breeding program.
Red-- Would you breed a dog/bitch that was bilaterally grade 1, or would you only use a dog/bitch that was unilatererally grade 1? If you've already answered this question, forgive me for asking, but there's been so much on elbows that I'm sure not all of the details are sticking to my brain.
My 2 cents. Red came here and a lot of people realized how much she knew about dogs and how well spoken she is. The top dogs did not like it very much. They liked their positions. All of sudden everyone wanted to know Red's opinion. Some people did not take that very well. They find a "flaw" in Red and they are beating that dead horse over over. After all that is the only dirt they can find on her to discredit her. Red don't waste your time defending yourself to people on this board. What do they really know about dogs and what makes them experts? You have more knowledge in your little pinky than some of these people combined. Ignore it gal and continue to help us.
Either way, scary and PM, there has been a lot of dialogue back and forth over this issue, and I'm sure there has been education on the part of many, myself included, during this discussion and debate.
If we can't discuss, even somewhat heatedly at times, no real learning can happen.
Thanks for your support, but I'm doing just fine, and actually I have enjoyed the discussion on elbows and breeding very much.
To not breed your girl would be a disservice to the breed.
If it was my bitch, I would get her elows scanned (the definative diagnostics tool). It is expensive and will need to be done at a vet school. I have always had a problem with OFA using only one x-ray image of the elbow - GDC used to require two views, IEWG using three views (and allows submissions at one year). I know a few belgian breeders that are now requiring elbows to be done at two years old. I know more than one belgian, x-rayed at an older age, whose results came back from ofa with djd. When they took the dogs into be scanned at MSU, the anomalies were due to injury, not DJD
I agree with XXXXXXX about don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Back in the late 50's early 60's when XXXXXXXXXXXX started developing what eventually was called XXXXXXXXXXX there were some breeders that wouldn't breed any XXXXXXXX diagnosed with the condition (which as 5 stages). There were breeders, however, who faithfully had eye checks done, first on breeding stock, then on litters and over the generations were able to modify the condition so that they never whelped litters which developed anything worse than choreoretinal changes (2nd stage of 5 stages). Which meant the dogs never went blind from the condition. I remember sitting at a seminar, in the late 80's, where Dr Aguira (sp?) from Baker's Institute told the group that XXXXXXXX breeders had been correct in breeding XXXXXXXX with the less severe level of the condition, as at the Institute they were seeing almost no XXXXXXXX with the stages that led to blindness. For those who joined the XXXXXXXX world after this time, this didn't mean that we weren't also trying to bred for normal eyes, while retaining other important characteristics. It's just that there were few normal eyed XXXXXXXXs, who also had the desired head and body characteristics. There also were not that many ophthalmologic vets back then.. When we started checking eyes we had Dr Donovan, from Morris Animal Foundation, come up for several years and do eye checks. While doing those eye checks on our XXXXXXXX he also taught our local vet how to read the condition and the next year would recheck our vet's reading to be sure he was doing it correctly.
But XXXXXXX you can't use the OFA stats because they are not complete enough to allow for real decision making. To be at all useful to breedersit would have to show a breakdown of what % were DJD and what % were true ED (FCP, OCD, UAP) as well as the results of breeding DJD dogs together as opposed to breeding true ED dogs together. OFA simply lumps DJD in with the true ED so you as a breeder have no idea if the total affected % is mainly unilateral DJD or if as in the Chow the % is mostly dogs with a true ED. Dogs with UAP, FCP or OCD should never be bred no matter the grade because those are indeed inherited elbow issues. I want dogs to be OFA'd for elbows but until OFA gets better at this and shows useful breakdowns, we breeders will have to take the info and make our own choices and decisions
I would absolutely use her for breeding--especially since it is unilateral. I've been doing a lot of research into unilateral hip dysplasia and there are many who feel that it is not genetic as much as it is probably caused by an injury--perhaps even when the puppy was still in the whelping box. The proponents of this theory suggest that the "good hip" is more likely the true genetic picture. I would guess the same could be true with elbow dysplasia.
Your post and the responses have been on my mind. We struggled to breed Rottweilers for over a decade. When we started out we only tested hips and eyes. When the breed hit it's height of popularity, we attended a seminar where the board-certified opthamologist who did all of the eye testing in the area spoke about heriditary faults and breeding strategies, etc. His singular message was to forget about hips, forget about eyes, etc. - BREED FOR TEMPERAMENT. It was a wake-up call for all of us. What I got from his message was to put these things in priority for the breed. There are going to be more and more genetic/health tests available to us in the future, but these are only tools. If we concentrate on only one trait, we are sure to lose a lot. So, if you're looking at a sound boy with good temperament who is otherwise an excellent specimen, go for it. While we don't breed Rotts anymore, I still think they are the most magnificent breed and I really appreciate the care you're taking in this decision.
Personally, I'm not at all enthused by OFA reading on elbows (and the more I hear regarding different breeds - the less enthused I get). So if it was my bitch - if she has everything else that you want (hips, temp, Vwd clearances etc) I would go ahead and breed her. As someone else said - you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
***Edited By: redyre_rotties on 12/4/2005 3:55:22 PM*** Reason: -----
You know, to each his own. These statements will still not change my mind because I have gone through genetic defects before (and still am) and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, no matter how minor. With this, I am going to just have to agree to disagree. I know by your statements that there really is no changing your mind. Same here. I know that I cannot be convinced that it is okay to breed a dog with a medical issue....again no matter how minor.
Hmm...I failed to see the "expert" opinions in the original post, or posts. To me it seemed like a group of people, like ourselves here on TP, none of which are experts. For all I know, it could have been a group of 12 year olds that that think OFA or whatever is a band!
My take on this is as follows: Now, I think children with Down Syndrome are absolutely freaking adorable. I've worked with a few, subbing in college, I had one in my class, and I also babysat a little girl with DS. She was so sweet, beautiful, had a wonderful temperament and was very active and brilliant. Other than the Downs Syndrome, Mellie had no problems whatsoever. Mellie is now 14 and has the mentality of a 6-8 year old. Should Mellie reproduce? There's nothing wrong with her besides a slight mental setback? What if she reproduced with a perfectly normal (if one exists!!!) male? NO! As a matter of fact, it's happened (not with Mellie) and people thought it was disgusting.
Red, I've had some respect for you. I admit I don't always agree with your method of deliverance of your "knowledge" or "opinions", but now I don't know. This seems awfully hypocritical to me. You were very vocal in the argument against Alicat, and continued to instigate arguments after that thread got tossed to the second page. But Alicat had no reason to believe that her dogs had any threat to their hips. You know your dog has a bad elbow and choose to breed her anyway, but can only defend your argument with amateur statements, while Alicat defended hers with expert facts. You frown on people who buy from BYBs and pet stores, because there are so many puppies in shelters. You criticize other breeders because there are so many dogs in shelters, and there are enough pet quality dogs...but you are producing puppies from a dog with known defects. I don't understand your logic here. So, I would hope that you would refrain from your bashing of other breeders' practices, as it doesn't seem you have room to talk.
Does breed specific research on DJD 1 include your study from from an amateur discussion board with a bunch of people's opinions? Have you studied beyond asking someone's opinion of the subject, and take the opinions you like as fact? I don't care to do an in depth research on rottweillers, as I don't care to own one. All I'm saying is don't knock other's breeding practices when your's are up to par. Your poo stinks too!
I am well up to par on this issue, and my standards for using Rottweilers for breeding will stand up to ANY scrutiny.
There is no country on the globe that forbids the breeding of DJD grade one Rottweilers to breeding partners that have normal elbows.
Not any of the countries that control VERY rigorously, and are known for doing so.
Not Germany, who has had mandatory elbow screening since the late 80s, not Sweden, not Holland, not England, not Australia, not Canada, not Spain, or Italy or Austria, and certainly not the US.
So if you want to impugn something about me, you will have to find something else besides the fact that I plan to breed my lovely bitch of correct temperament who has normal hips, eyes, and heart, and who has ONE elbow Grade 1 DJD.
Heather your statements are reprehensible. Are you suggesting that we sterilize people with handicaps? Are you for real? Did you know that not all down syndrome kids have mental handicaps? Your statement makes you sound like a fool. Down syndrome is one of the most common genetic birth defects in the world. It's caused by an extra chromosome and anyone can have a baby with down syndrome even you. You really need to publicly apologize for your stupid comment.