http://www.helpinganimals.com/h-train.html 5) Benji is the Joan Rivers of dogdom. He barks at EVERYTHING: the moon, the sun, dogs, cats, squirrels, cockroaches, dust mites. How can you get him to quit that incessant yapping?
a. Give Benji a biscuit to distract him.
b. Sneak up behind Benji and startle him with a swat him on the rump as you yell, "No!"
c. Get one of those nifty electronic collars that zaps Benji whenever he utters a peep.
d. None of the above.
Answer: d. For starters, how come people can talk all day, but one peep out of Benji gets a "shut up" from you? Benji is barking because he's trying to tell you something-"Look out, here comes that guy in the noisy truck!" or, "Hey, I'm lonely out here by myself," or, "I'm terribly bored; can we go for a walk now?"
But what if you're not feeling particularly interested in what Benji has to say about the trash truck at 7 a.m.? Hitting Benji and shouting at him is cruel and unfair-you're punishing him for something he thinks is very important-alerting you to intruders (an instinct you'll thank him for if a burglar shows up!)
Electronic shock collars are no better: They punish Benji indiscriminately (and painfully), plus they have a number of other drawbacks. Dogs trained with shock collars and "electronic fences" may develop fears or aggression aimed at what they BELIEVE is the source of that pesky shock-kids riding by on bikes-whom Benji starts to chase and bark at until he gets an unpleasant surprise-or the dog next door, who "administers" a painful jolt every time Benji runs up to play (two confused and frustrated dogs once killed a neighboring dog when he crossed the boundary to play). Dogs have also been known to run heedlessly through electronic barriers in hot pursuit of a squirrel or fleeing scary fireworks, then become terrified to cross back through it.
So what can you do? Ask Benji to do something else! Start making 7 a.m. on trash day practice-lying-down time until Benji gets the idea that lying down is the thing to do when the garbage truck comes. (Give Benji a treat only AFTER he does what you ask, not before, otherwise you will be TRAINING him to bark!) You also may try teaching Benji the meaning of the word "quiet" by GENTLY closing his mouth with your hands (no rough treatment, you're simply showing him what "quiet" means) as you say the word. Remember, don't lose your temper, holler, or otherwise abuse or over-use the "quiet" command-let Benji talk sometimes!
***Edited By: mzpeekabooicu on 1/27/2006 3:12:41 PM*** Reason: forgot stuff
While I know and I do understand dogs feel pain I don't feel that they have "human emotions" such as knowingly being angry, feeling pity, knowing that a needle might kill them or a car in the street could be lethal. They have no understanding of such things. Dogs react to social behaviors and situations. Fear is necessary to survival. Aggression towards other dogs is a social behavior and you might see Joy as the wagging of a tail. Dogs can be content in pretty much any environment. Those living in a kennel don't secretly wish they were on the couch.
So, basically humans have a habit of anthropomorphizing our dogs. Let me define it:
"To ascribe a human form or human behaviour, characteristics, etc to (an animal, god or inanimate object."
Dogs who have surgery don't come home and complain about it. They go on about their lives, eating, playing, and doing what dogs do. They are quite stoic. Not once has a de-barked dog of mine acted as though it was in pain or now somehow "sad" because it couldn't make loud noises. Dogs mostly communicate through posturing rather than vocal displays. Just watch a pack of dogs playing. You will see much more posturing than barking. I've never seen a dog ostracized from the pack because he/she cannot bark loudly. We don't de-bark dogs on a whim here. We only reduce the voices on those who cannot stop with raucous noise which no amount of behavioral training seems to control. I have many more dogs with voices than without.
MzpeekabooIcu- How many dogs have you owned? I am just curious, because I think you are taking about something you have not experienced yourself. You are insulting beagles1 who probably has more experience about dogs in her little finger than MOST people on this forum's whole body.
It is easy to talk about something you have never experienced with propaganda, idiologies and 'theories'. People with experience are telling you it does NOT work with some dogs.
Are you saying out of 1000 problem barking dogs, retraining would work every single time?
I think you would have your hands very full even trying to 'retrain' one of these dogs that have an addition/mental disorder. THEY AREN'T average barking dogs that bark for a reason...
No one is saying that you should just go and debark all of your dogs for convienience. However, in order to save a dogs life or last resort, it should be an option.
One horrible puppymiller who "might" have debarked their dogs in such a disgusting way does not an epidemic make with regards to self de-barking. I've been involved in dogs for many years and have never heard of this other than on extremist AR websites where they claim all sorts of outrageous atrocities. While it could happen I highly doubt its commonplace. As for vets who condem debarking.. Usually they are AR extremist slanted.. most likely PETA paid for their education. Many many vets will tell you that for many dogs de-barking is lifesaving. My own vet has had people come to him with dogs who they are ready to euthanize for barking and he has piles of letters from those folks thanking him for giving them thier dog back.
Here is a site that gives the up side of this life saving procedure
i have had 6 rescues a german shepard/ austrailian shep mix heidi a spitz/ samoyed mix prince a german shepard sgt peppers ( lonely hearts club band lol a keeshound mix heidi-ho a chow akita mix princess and a chi mix ruffy i do not cuurently seeking another dog at this time due to i have an 11 1/2 yr old iguana still as i had 2 but lost gremlin to chf heidi was 16 yrs at passing prince was 17 yrs and battled artritus to where it was kinder to ya know. heidi-ho had cancer and princess was attacked and killed by a neighbors dog that jumped a fence ruffy had chf and was put down as he was not doing well and was given less than 3/6 mos to live we did everthing but he was 14/15 and it was best to end suffering as he was not eating and barely able to breathe and sleep and was having siezures and organ failure sgt peppers is currently at my sisters as she was broken into and borrowed sgt. and clicked so well that i didnt have the heart to keep letting her borrow him every weekend she had always loved pepper. i visit so no love lost only gained :) i was not attacking i asked her a question to please clarify she did and that was fine i know as a last result but i am against debarking. there are other things to do first too many people just want a quick fix I DO NOT MEAN ALL thats my opinion you dont have to like it. BUT I WAS NOT ATTACKING
as far as the pet rock comment i mean it to anyone who would think pain is not the same for dogs as people yes people dwell on it but i meant that pain still hurts whether human or other forms with a beating heart SHE clarified what she meant and that is fine
***Edited By: mzpeekabooicu on 1/27/2006 6:54:12 PM*** Reason: typo
Beagles1, FYI, I used to show dogs too. I am not an AR person.....what are you on this forum for? You sound exactly like one of Glens little buddies from USAbreeders mill forum. Your logic etc is just like theirs.
I happen to despise PETA by the way! They only are interested in nobody owning ANY pets period.
Once again as I figured you refused to look at any thing else I attached. That one article was not just it. No not every Mill / BYB/ uses the pipe method. However it is most common in the Amish community but certainly not limited to the Amish Millers.
I have spent many years in educating myself about millers & BYB's. That does not make one an AR person. Pfftttt! I just as many others do here, not condone the abuse of animals in the way they have been.
Maybe you'd be happier back at your usabreeder site with Glen & the rest of your buddies. Newsflash.....this is not a unethical breeder friendly site such as USAB is. Yes we have some VERY fine show breeders on here such as Icy. She cares deeply for her dogs & treats them extremely well. Sorry, but I can't consciously classify you even close to her league.
"Maybe you'd be happier back at your usabreeder site with Glen & the rest of your buddies. Newsflash.....this is not a unethical breeder friendly site such as USAB is. Yes we have some VERY fine show breeders on here such as Icy. She cares deeply for her dogs & treats them extremely well. Sorry, but I can't consciously classify you even close to her league."
I really have no idea what nonsense your spouting and you certainly do NOT know me or my accomplishments over the last 20 years. I did look at your links and they of course prove absolutely nothing but, HYPE. As I said. one amish mill does the unspeakable and you believe that all person who de-bark would support it.
Perhaps you have me confused with someone else in your reference to whatever site your blabbing about. Obviously you read it religiously.
i had a dog debarked. she barked incessantly. sharp high bark. birds, squirrels, shadows, light reflections, dust bunnies, leaves, flies, people, animals, garbage cans- first because they were there then because they weren't- nightime, daytime, all the time, inside, outside. no training worked. shock collars scare her into shaky submission in general for everything. not a way to live. and she never gets tired. now she can "whisper" to her hearts content and she can be outside all she wants. she was going stircrazy having to be in the house so much. she communicates with the other dogs effectively. mine use more body language than barks or growls. i couldn't make the squirrels and birds and leaves go away and couldn't make no one walk by my house or the mailman not come anymore, or all the shadows go away. for us it was the best solution. she's no less happy.
I agree with beagles1--AR groups turn one atrocity into "standard practice" for all breeders. AR groups also use pictures and videos that are many years old and outdated to promote their propoganda. And just because I agree with Beagles on this issue does not make me a mill or a USDA breeder. It makes me informed about the REAL issues. One of the biggest issues surrounding debarking is the use of these "quiet" guard/attack dogs by drug dealers and gangs. It has been an issue in my state. It has never been a puppy mill issue as this is NOT common practice for mills. (as AR people try to portray it).
***Edited By: PixiedustPapillons on 1/28/2006 8:55:50 AM*** Reason: sp
Okay yavin- I don't think most people are in a situation where a dog could bark continually, with a loud shrieking piercing bark. Day in and day out. I mean the only people that could put up with that are people who can afford to live in the country or in a subdivision where houses are far enough apart... and that's not the majority of Americans.
So, say you are part of normal America that has to deal with the rules of society and neighbors. You already 'rescued' a dog from a kill shelter, a 4-5 year old not very adoptable dog on its last day. You don't know it is a barker, the shelter didn't know/tell you.
You get it home and it barks
Your neighbors call you and complain. You take it to training. Doesn't work. 3 more trainers say they have never seen a dog so subborn and 'untrainable'. They recommend you get the dog put to sleep.
Now your kids and you are up all night every night. You are yelling at the dog. It doesn't care. You kids grades are falling and you are now getting in trouble at your work.
You get the citronella bark collar. Dog just learn to raise it's head and continues to bark with out care.
After 6 months of owning the dog and not getting any sleep, you are really tired and crabby now. Everything in your life is more difficult because your family hasn't been sleeping.
Animal control comes and warns you about the barking. You have to do some thing. You buy a SHOCK collar. Put it on the dog. Crank it up to a reasonably high setting. Dog barks and yipes. You feel bad, but relieved.
Until, within 2 days the dog is barking and yiping all the time. Pretty soon you have it on the highest setting and the dog is barking through it.
A week later Animal Control is back out with a fine and court summons. The judge tells you your irresponsible and a terrible neighbor. Judge says if he sees you in the court again it will be a harsh fine and he will order the dog to be taken by Animal Control.
You know this dog will never get another home. Every one of your friends and family members thinks you are stupid for owning this dog. The whole town knows and hates this dog. You put out an ad to re-home the dog anyway. No one responds.
This dog WILL die if it goes with animal control.
WHAT IS THE NON-CRUEL CHOICE HERE? You must pick 1 or 2. 1) You get the dog debarked 2) You have your vet put the dog to sleep.
***Edited By: alicat1 on 1/30/2006 7:35:54 AM*** Reason: sp
mine is a shelter dog, and it's a roll of the dice with those. it's not always possible to tell in advance how much barking will occur. she does, however, still have her growl, that was unchanged. so she can warn and all with a growl.
I live in the "country". Country people HATE it when "city" people move in so they can have a running, barking dog. I live on top of a hill and every sound rolls across the countryside--I can hear the neighbors and they can hear my dogs. "moving" is never the solution to a compulsive barker.
"WHAT IS THE NON-CRUEL CHOICE HERE? You must pick 1 or 2. 1) You get the dog debarked 2) You have your vet put the dog to sleep."
That is an extreme situation. If you were in an area that doesn't tolerate barking, wouldn't you make extra sure that the dog wasn't a barker rather than picking it up without knowing?
Personally, I wouldn't let it come down to that. There are breeds that naturally yap a lot and there are breeds that don't bark much.
This may sound crazy, but my miniature schnauzer hardly ever barks. He may give a couple rumbles here and there when he's playing but that's it...when someone knocks on the door he just wines and scratches until I let them in.
Beagle1 "I really have no idea what nonsense your spouting and you certainly do NOT know me or my accomplishments over the last 20 years. I did look at your links and they of course prove absolutely nothing but, HYPE. As I said. one amish mill does the unspeakable and you believe that all person who de-bark would support it."
Thank goodness I don't come on here much any more, yet I saw your post & want to reply. It's the way you speak about your dogs that is a clear dead give away. That doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. The articles were not about one mill either. LOL! It just goes to show your know it all attitude is lacking. I also stated that not all puppymills, Amish or not use this method. You read only what you want to read, which makes you not looking too bright.
Perhaps you have me confused with someone else in your reference to whatever site your blabbing about. Obviously you read it religiously.
I lurk just as they lurk on here...... Pffft!
Pixie "I agree with beagles1--AR groups turn one atrocity into "standard practice" for all breeders. AR groups also use pictures and videos that are many years old and outdated to promote their propoganda. It has never been a puppy mill issue as this is NOT common practice for mills. (as AR people try to portray it)."
As I will state again....I did not say all millers use this method. Again, I am not with an AR group. I have however been on this site since 2004. Certainly a lot longer than you two. I know you are from BBC as are many of your followers. It's hillarious that your comment about old photos videos etc is exactly what the millers & BYB's try to claim.........ROFL!!!Why are they still getting busted & closed down then? Why are some so ignorant on their own websites to show the filthy conditions & think nothing of it until it gets pointed out to them? ........ Pfffft!
In a nut shell, sorry I'm not an AR person, I eat meat etc. I do not like PETA again......because they do not want anyone to have animals.......they are so busted for killing animals as well. Clue in, I do not accept any animal cruelty.
I know you are from BBC as are many of your followers. It's hillarious that your comment about old photos videos etc is exactly what the millers & BYB's try to claim......... ____________________________________________________
Just because it comes from a distateful source does not make it any the less true. And it IS true. I don't have any followers (wish I did, that might be fun). And just because a person does not agree with you does not automatically make them BYB or millers. Just for your info, I know who beagles is and she has NEVER nor will ever be a part of the group (BYB or millers) you mentioned. I don't call people names when I disagree with them--not even you. Yet you seem to need to do that to make your cause seem more correct.
***Edited By: PixiedustPapillons on 1/30/2006 7:17:01 PM*** Reason: add
"Just because it comes from a distasteful source does not make it any the less true. And it IS true. " ? What is "it" you are referring to?
"I don't have any followers (wish I did, that might be fun)."
A whole bunch of you came over here which is fine... we just don't want any of you to think this board is the same as BBC. This site is much more rescue & shelter friendly .... I hope you get the drift....
"And just because a person does not agree with you does not automatically make them BYB or millers."
No it doesn't but it clearly shows who has experienced their presence, weather in person or on boards once they start talking like them. Here's a tip for you....this is obviously not by any means the first time millers & BYB's have been discussed on this site by far. The topic in fact is not a well liked one here when one tries to pretend that bad breeders don't exist....I would think you all would have realized this by now...... (rolls eyes)
"Just for your info, I know who beagles is and she has NEVER nor will ever be a part of the group (BYB or millers) you mentioned."
I think we figured that one out.... that you know beagles1. All I'm going to say is that just because one shows dogs doesn't make them all saints at rearing dogs.....in that industry we know bad ones do in fact exist too. No I'm not saying beagles1 is one of them either before you try claiming I said that too ....I'm just stating a fact for those that may not know.
I simply am not going to sit back & let someone lie about what does not go on in puppymills period. Again for the 3rd time.......I did not say every mill uses this method. It does not mean only one mill does use it either by any means......End of story!
***Edited By: rhondakbt on 1/30/2006 9:19:40 PM*** Reason: sp
Alicat I agree with you,before I lost my pet due to constant barking day in and day out I would get my pug debarked.I may be selfish but I couldn't bare to loose my pet due to constant barking,although like you stated last resort.
Yes Ali, I would get a dog debarked before I let AC take him away. If more people knew about this option, some dogs would be saved from shelters and would be able to live a long happy life with their owners.