I have never heard of a dog dying from cropping and docking other than from anesthesia. Yet how many die getting other surgery? Yet thats ok?
I think saying people do it on there own is a dumb argument since I could offer to spay and neuter everyones dogs,would you let me do it? No!(god I hope not anyway!) Of course someone who knows what they are doing needs to do it.
Well I think when you are writing your complaints you just need to mention Westminster to them. I am sure that event brings a lot of money to their state.
If they ban tail docking and ear cropping in New York. I am sure they will find a lot of people boy coting Westminster or the show committee might just have the event moved completely to another state.
Because thought there are a lot of breeds that don't have their tails docked or their ears cropped. There are a lot of breeds that have to have their dew-claws removed. If we let people start to make tails and ears illigel then they may go after dew-claws next.
Then none of the dogs we love and cherrish today will be like that in the future. Ecept of course the few breeds that don't need any of that done.
I really don't think it is far off though that most of your dogs aren't going to have docked tails or ears cropped.
They are not allowed to do ears in Eroupe so if you ever plan on taking your dogs over seas to show or live most of the places there your dogs ears will have to be natural. I am sure tails will be next there too.
I get a lot of people that want Brittany puppies that have tails. So it really might not be a matter of what the breeders what, but what the public wants. Even some breeders if they want to be able to take their dogs to England to show then they can't have the dogs ears done.
***Edited By: langniappe on 5/12/2006 8:08:18 PM*** Reason: added
Because thought there are a lot of breeds that don't have their tails docked or their ears cropped. There are a lot of breeds that have to have their dew-claws removed. If we let people start to make tails and ears illigel then they may go after dew-claws next - Langniappe.
Just a little observation, hope you don't mind but there is a difference between having ears cropped to having dewclaws removed. Dewclaws are often removed because they are a hindrance and often get caught and then subsequently torn so ultimately it's for the benefit of the dog whereas ear cropping is only done to make a dog look aggressive. Tail docking is understandable as it does seem to get in the way and can get damaged in the case of dogs that are used for hunting (I loathe hunters btw).
Spuerting is done for health reasons and for prevention ,tail docking and ear cropping are done for cosmetic reasons because the AKC says so. It's purely selfish with no benefits at all. Leave the dogs natural.You can't compare the two.
actually there really is no difference between tail docking, ear cropping or dew claw removal. they all involve cutting off a body part. doesnt matter where it is located on the dog. same thing. all three procedures should only be done by a vet. you can not say that it is a traumatic thing for a dog to have his/her ears cropped, but turn around and say that is is okay to dock tails and remove dew claws. not any one procedure is any more harmful than the other if done by a vet that has experience in performing the procedures.
Ruby-thats why people are so uneducated and start bills like this.
Ear cropping is done for more than to make the dog look aggressive. for my boy he would be deaf form ear infections by now if he wasn't cropped. for others the ear can get caught and tear. I think my boy probally would have hooked himself on some farm ecquiptment by now though too! He got his eye once on a side of the barn!
For some it is about the looks but you have to do cropping early and you never know if that dog will have an ear issue or need readopted later in life(cropped does adopt easier-must be because they look viscious). For dobes its their look. I still like undocked but always wil;l love my cropped boys look better.
its laughable that ear cropping is any diffrent than dew claw removal. I say it has saved my boy and people tell me I am just a bad owner. Yet its ok to take the dewclaws off? I hear people say you can jsut tape them? So wouldn't removing them be abuse since a crop for my boy was prevenative?
Not to mention anyone against docking has never seen a bad tail injury or a dog go through an amputation. you'd probally change your mind real quick.
***Edited By: joce on 5/12/2006 10:54:17 PM*** Reason: g
Duke is left natural and duchess has ears clipped but I think they are both beautiful..so cosmetic wasnt the issue here. I just clipped Duchess ears because ..I dont know, just did. But she wasnt in pain or didnt have emotional problems because of it. Whats funny is dogs that are known for terrible self inflicted tail injury, grey hounds, Coon hounds and Great Danes are not even on the dock list. Maybe they should be added if its for tail safty. I'm not against docking or ear clipping if done by a licenced professional. Its those sicko street punks whacking the ears off with razors that really tick me off.
Dusty, I realise that cropping, docking and dew claw removal are "surgery" but surely some are more important than others?...If a dog is kept solely as a pet I don't see a real need for docking as the risk of its tail getting damaged is negligible and as for ear cropping, I do have a hard time imagining its ears getting torn.
Joce - what breed of dog do you have, not sure whether you own a doberman? if so you are not alone, lol. I happen to own a dobe also and I could never imagine having his ears cropped, I would have preferred if his tail was docked by a vet when only a few days old but since he is 15 months old and docking has become illegal in this state 2 years ago I had to make do and perhaps it all boils down to the fact that before then I never saw a dobe with a tail so I was accustomed to seeing them only in a docked state; since he is an indoor dog I shudder when he gets too excited and wags that tail and inevitably it bangs against the wall or whatever he happens to be closest to, it feels painful just looking at it. As far as uncropped ears causing ear infections, maybe there is an underlying reason for it...If a dog has constant ear infections then vets perform surgery that alters the shape of the inside of the ear canal and that tends to put a stop to this problem but I do have to say that ear cropping is jumping the gun prematurely as not all dogs are prone to ear infections and the main reason that it is done has already been concluded - vanity.
***Edited By: Ruby on 5/12/2006 11:10:14 PM*** Reason: added
rednose - tail docking is not usually done as a cosmetic thing. In most of the breeds it is done it, it's for a safety reason. Australian Shepherds for example are a herding breed whose tails are customarily docked to prevent them from being stepped on by cattle and broken. In fact, a percentage of Aussies are born with natural bob tails.
And I don't agree Dusty that dew claws need to be done by a vet. I've done my own since my second litter. My vet showed me on the first what she does and how to properly removed them (from correct sanitation of the instruments (hemostats/kelly forceps) to how to stop the bleeding - we use stypic powder with benzocane in it to numb the site). I have only had dew claws grow back on 2 puppies (and my average is about the same as my vets) and I've never had any infection, scarring or other problems. I do think the person removing the dew claws needs to be smart enough to seek professional assistance.
My Dad is due to have his first Aussie litter this summer (just finished OFA testing and CERF testing and everyone is finally two :) and he will have our vet do the docking. I think this is important as well - but mainly because I know if the tail is docked at the wrong joint it does make a difference - and once the tail is docked, it's pretty tricky to fix a mistake... :) A good number of his pups will be placed as stock dogs, so it is important for this reason that they have docked tails.
Docking should be done at 3-5 days of age, so it's not something that a GOOD breeder can say "This one is going to be a pet so I'm not going to dock it". A good breeder of a herding/hunting breed is going to expect a number of their puppies to either be future show dogs or stock dogs or hunting dogs. And the show dogs have docked tails because ideally, they are showing that they are as close to perfect as they can be to their breed standard, which is about function as much as beauty.
Abbylynne - I was curious as to how cattle can tromp on a dog's tail, lol?? A tail is never too long as to touch the ground so I am miffed as to how livestock can step on it?lol. As I said though, as long as a vet carries out the docking then I am all for it but I don't particularly like the idea of breeders doing this themselves without a local anaesthetic, I have heard it all before that a pup at a few days of age hasn't got a fully developed nervous system so hence when a tail is docked it doesn't seem to feel any pain when docking takes place but I beg to differ. I would hope that vets use a local anaesthetic these days before conducting this procedure.
As you may know, I have an aussie shepherd pup and he is beautiful, some of his littermates were born with a bob tail and I had a choice of pups with and without a tail but on a long haired dog I prefer the tail myself:)
i was not refering to you abbylynne as far as the dew claw removal. i am meaning that people that have no knowledge as to what they are doing , have no business messing with any kind of cutting on an animal. they are trying to save a buck and can end up putting the pups through unnecessary pain. those are the people that should leave any cutting to a vet.
***Edited By: dusty082155 on 5/13/2006 1:52:58 AM*** Reason: add
Merico, I know where you're coming from when you say that you don't like being told what you should or shouldn't do with YOUR dog but sometimes laws are necessary with the number of idiots that are around. When I purchased my doberman the breeder was prepared to put a band on his tail and he was 8 weeks of age by then, of course I refused but that is just one example of a person lacking common sense or simply not having any consideration for animals!! Needless to say this pup then came down with parvo 2 days later and spent 8 days at the vets on a drip and a strong course of antibiotics!!
Ruby your breeder was an idiot plain and simple. You have to give people a little more credit than that. I would have laughed at soemoen like that and turned around when I learned they didn;t even know how to properly care for their breed.
I hate the excuse that its jsut a pet. Its jsut the pets that are rehomed,not the working dogs. They will have a much safer easier time getting adopted if they have their preventative maintenence done:) I consider all my dogs working dogs so I guess ti doesn't apply to me anyway:)
I really wish people could see the dogs out here. I don't know how pampered house pets do it cuz I'd think a door is just as bad as anyhting out here but oh well.
***Edited By: joce on 5/13/2006 9:46:53 AM*** Reason: t
Ruby - have you ever watched an Aussie work cattle? They aren't always standing straight up. They do a lot of heel nipping and their bodies are often low to the ground. This would make a tail drag on the ground and if they are in the middle of a herd it could easily be stepped on - especially if the Aussie is trying to get the cattle to move. I've actually often wondered why Border Collies have long tails - though I suppose they are usually more intended to move sheep. Aussie's were specifically bred to work cattle.
I don't think anesthetic is necessary for docking or dew claw removal when it's done at 3-5 days of age (depends a lot on the size of the puppy when this should be done - I've done dew claws on a litter at 2 days because they were large puppies and advanced for their age). You actually have to witness a dew claw removal to understand why I say this (I haven't witnessed a docking yet). The pups cry when the dews are being removed, but 3 minutes later they are contently nursing on Mom like nothing happened. From what I understand with tail docking it's similar. In fact, I'd be much more hesitant to use any kind of drugs on a newborn puppy.
But I do agree that maybe people who do their own dew claws and docking be required to take a class or get some kind of certification before being allowed to do it. It could be a 3 hour class and it would work - and would help eliminate people who are doing it without the correct knowledge. I know my Dad's Aussie's tails were all done by their breeders - but both of the breeder's he used had been raising Aussies for at least 20 years and they know what they are doing.
Sometimes it does become about saving a buck and not about the wellfare of the dog - I don't think that is right. A breeder does need to take responsibility for being a breeder.
Abbylynne - No I haven't actually seen an aussie shepherd at work but I would have thought that livestock keep somewhat of a distance between themselves and the dog. I thought that aussies were used for sheep not cattle, that was interesting. You took the words right out of my mouth when you mentioned that border collies are not docked, I don't think there is a high ratio of tail damage with them otherwise farmers would have docked their tail long ago. If there is a high ratio of tail damage with working aussies then it's understandable that their tail be docked but what about the show aussies which never get to see sheep or cattle?
Oh gosh. I have been reading and hesitant to post. I think there is a difference between tail/dew removal and ear cropping.
Tails/dews are done at 2-3 days. My mentor has done my tails and dew claws for years. I 'can' do the dew claws but there is no way in h_ll I am doing the tails, that is a thick bone. I have seen vets that have done a far far worse job on tails than my friend. Many older show people are as good at tail/dew removal as a vet and they know exactly how they want it done on their puppy.
Ear cropping is done at 8-12 weeks under general anesthesia, where there is always a risk, but that does include any surgery, even spay/neuter as others have mentioned.
There is obvious discomfort to a puppy that is very aware of pain. Most people also don't know that a 'good' boxer show cut, which is long, can take over a year of taping and re-taping to stand properly, and can need repeating to help grow more scar tissue so they stand. Taping is not fun, having hair pulled off your ears. My dogs don't exactly run to me in excitement when they see me break out the tape box.
I have natural eared boxers and cropped. Neither have more ear infections than the other, and seldom get them at all.
I always discourage my pet people from getting ears done. I don't think it is necessary and if they don't keep up with it, and the ears only partially stand or one stands but one doesn't, is way worse than the largest natural ear. I am not an enthusiastic cropper, and I wish more natural eared boxers would be equally concidered in the show ring.
All that said I still think that it should be up to each individual dog owner what they choose to have humanely done to their dog. It is between them and their vet. It is kind of scary that laws like these can turn in to a slippery slope of what you can or can't do with your own dog. Now ears and tails, some day maybe no nail trimming or anal gland expression.