Not to be argumentative, but something I never really like is when breeders say "I've never had a pup come back". That's fine - but here's where people need to look more closely :
1.) Does the breeder offer more than a 1 year guarantee? If the answer is no - with problems that aren't going to surface until the pup is over a year old OF COURSE the breeder hasn't had a pup come back. That's why mediocre breeders offer a 1 year guarantee. It looks responsible, but means they don't really have to be.
2.) Does the breeder offer a "replacement puppy" or cash back in the event that a defect is found? If it's a replacement puppy - especially if they only have a couple of dogs and don't have testing done - WHY would you want a replacement puppy if your puppy has an inherited problem. I know a "breeder" who has 2 females and one male. She offers a replacement puppy only. WHY would you want a full or 1/2 sibling to your puppy with hip displaysia? MOST people wouldn't even notify the breeder at this point.
3.) Does the breeder make you give the dog back in the event a defect is found? If yes - again, unless you are not attached to the dog, WHY would you do this? Some people would - but most people I have talked to would choose not contacting the breeder if it meant they could keep the dog.
4.) Is it a FATAL guarantee? If yes - there are A LOT of inherited health problems that are very expensive to treat but not necessarily fatal. Luxating Patella can be one of them. Environmental Allergies are another. Skin problems, eye problems, etc... Your dog CAN live with cataracts - but it's quality of life is diminished and you have the added burden of having a young dog with a health issue that it will have for many many years. I know a Sheltie breeder near me who noticed I have a 2 year guarantee and upped hers to be a 2 year - except she only covers the problem if it kills the dog or you HAVE to put the dog down. I cover anything that the treatment will exceed the cost of my puppy.
5.) What DOES the breeder cover? Some only cover hips and eyes, or only cover 1 defect. In that case, again, why contact the breeder if your pup has a problem not included in the guarantee?
6.) Here's the biggy - How many puppies has the breeder bred? How many of their families does the breeder still hear from on a regular basis? Happy "Customers" generally stay in contact with a breeder for a LONG time after they get their puppies. I still hear from the first family I ever placed a puppy with at least once every 2-3 months. It may be a short e-mail and a cute picture, but I know the family is happy with every aspect of their dog because they keep telling me.
Here's why I say this - I have a Sheltie that I bought from a local breeder before I started raising them. She has terrible temperament (snappy, was difficult to train, barky) and at 18 months we found out she had luxating patellas in both rear knees. I only had a 6 month health guarantee on her, but I did notify the breeder of the problem and she flat out told me "she's over 6 months of age - it's not my problem, it's yours".
Over the course of the last 3-4 years (since I've been breeding myself) I have met 6 other people with dogs from this breeder. 1 died at 6 years old of epilepsy. 1 had shoulder problems. 1 had hip displaysia. One had a bite problem severe enough to require correction. One had a skin problem. And the 6th had temperament problems bad enough that the family had to give her to an older couple because it was biting their kids.
This breeder KNOWS she has dogs with health issues and doesn't care. She could probably also say "I've never had a dog returned" - because none of us gave our dogs back. In fact, none of their health problems occurred by 6 months of age, most weren't apparent until the dog was over a year. Each of us let her know about what went on with our dog - and she still breeds the parents regardless...
It's nice to hear "I've never had a problem" - but it's better to know that IF something does come up (and every breeder will see something at some point) that the breeder will stand behind the puppy and support you - not ignore you or make things harder.
You know, you're absolutely RIGHT! There is nothing in this world wrong with encouraging fools to indiscriminately breed dogs of unknown health and different breeds and charge top dollar for them because they have decided to call them some clever, cutsie name!
Heck, I LOVE buying a pair of blue jeans and rather than paying $40-$50 for a really good pair I'll spend $200.00 for the same quality of jeans, just to have the privilege of walking around providing free advertisement for someone far smarter than I am, who just got me to pay my hard earned money to walk around with his name on my rear!
YUP! That works for me!
If it’s a mixed breed pup, it’s a MIXED breed pup. No name is going to change that fact. It may be adorable, it may be smart, it may have a wonderful temperament and be the best dog you have ever had the joy of having in your life, but it is a mixed breed dog .
Nothing in the world wrong with that other than paying top dollar to encourage unethical people to continually breed dogs without knowing what the blue blazes what they are doing.
Not this one again... didnt read most most of anything past the first page... just wanted to make sure that "hybread vigor" was mentioned (yes, I know I spelled it as bread, thought I'd help out the uneducated *.
And I'd just like to put the offer on the table... that if anyone can make me a custon bred dog, that will flip someone off on cue.... let me know.
***Edited By: pyrmom on 5/30/2006 4:40:25 AM*** Reason: *
geeze go outta town for a few days and you miss all the good stuff,LOL.
I was in edmonton this weekend (yay oilers I guess), and found beagle, pug bassett cross pups for a reasonable (choke) price of 1300.00 wow what a bargain, HA.
personally if uneducated people want to pay unreal prices for mutts for what ever reason go hard. But when your designer dog can't walk at 2 well good for you, sad for the pup but it serves you right, I think the samething of people that don't find good breeders as well.
I told my mother-in-law that about her shih tzu too. She bough muffie before I met her son, and muffie is so messed up that she can't go up and down stairs. Yep that is fair to the dog. I am sure her breeder has never had a pup returned either. And I know she still bred the parents as the pet shop back home got pups from her again.
Maybe after your mutt pup costs thousands of dollars to fix you will understand why the people, and any responcible breeder as well, on here say to find a great breeder and stop arguing stupid points abour mutts and designer breeds.
Now I have to ask anyone on her that bought a dog from a great breeder have to put our thousands for vet bills from a genetic defect? What happened when you contacted your breeder?
When Tonka started to sieze his breeder offered me several options. I could return him and get a new show dog, I could keep him pay the pet price for him and still get another show dog, either way he had to be neutered, which she would have paid for, or I could keep him and use the balance toward a dog at a latter date, either show or pet. No she did not offer my money back it was in the contract that I could not have the money back. She has healthy lines and his epilepsy is a fluke, according to the vets.
oh ya a breeding on my female from any of her dog was an option as well.
***Edited By: ruffian on 5/31/2006 4:16:37 AM*** Reason: add
ruffian, that makes a great point! I actually have a little guy I just had to have neutered that I intended to show but he has bite problems that have to be corrected. When I contacted the breeder she offered several options - I could send him back or keep him for starters (I cannot sell him with either option she gave me). THEN I could either have 2 free stud services to one of her Champion Males on any of my females that I want or I could have the pick puppy from one of her next Champion Sired litters - totally unrelated. She didn't even hesitate. All she asked for was that I provide proof of neuter on him and that I give her something signed by my vet that he had a problem. I did also send her pictures of his bite - but she didn't require them.
It still stinks for me as a "show person" as my little guy I had to neuter is 10 months old and has been going through both Obedience and Conformation training - BUT I'm not going to be out a show dog in the long run. His breeder made things easier for me because all I'm out is time - NOT the $1500 I paid for the dog.
With a good breeder you don't have to jump through hoops to get a health guarantee honored. And things do happen, even to the best breeder. Brady's breeder kept a sister from his litter to show and breed and she now has to figure out if his bite problem is inherited ot if it's a fluke and then has to decide what to do with the little female (show her only, or still consider having litters from her). I think I may feel worse for her!
Your purebred dogs have seizures and bite problems??
What about this quote from a senior member??
Point is...purebred or mixed (which the mixed breeders dont care) if a dog has a underbite, HD, or any other isue, it should not be bred it should be fixed. Good breeders of purebreds know this and do not use bad reprensentations of the breed to reproduce. On the otherhand, mixed breed breeders use them regardless, because for a mutt it is cute to have a huge underbite, and heck as long as I can still make my $1,000 who cares?
Hmm . . . it doesn’t sound like you are getting anything better that the “ignorant” people who buy mixes.
1.) we spayed/neutered the dogs with bite problems or seizures while a mixed breed breeder probably would have bred them regardless of the problem.
2.) Our purebred breeders did something to compensate us for the fact that they sold us a puppy with a problem. Both of those problems - no mixed breed breeder would include them in their health guarantee.
Health problems happen from time to time with even the best breeder. The measure of the breeder is shown in how they handle the situation. Mixed breed breeders are going to say "sorry, you're out of luck and I'm still gonna breed the parents even though I know they have puppies with health issues". A GOOD purebred breeder is going to say "How can I help make this easier for you and I'm going to find the problem and probably won't breed the parents again".
And yes, my horse is very high. I like it like that. Makes my standards easier to reach...
Yes my purebred dog has seizers, he is neutered and his 1 pup, by accedent, has been spayed and closely followed up on and she is fine as well, and is 7 years old. She was born before we found out about him. There are a great number of worse problems from poorly bred dogs from BYB and puppymills as they DO NOT stop breeding dogs with these and other problems. My breeder took steps to prevent this from happening again and getting to be a problem within the breed. That is why I refuse to pay money for any animal that does not have a good guarentee.
As for purposly breeding mutts these people are not trying to creat a new breed they are trying to sell mutts at high prices to uneducated people. They care little or none for the health and welfare of the dogs they have brought into the world once the cheque has cleared. Anything less then a 5 year health guarentee is not great to me. If you are breeding dogs and have your health testing done then 5 years should not worry you. But if these people offer anything it barely covers 2 years, and even then they dont cover anything really.
good 4 you this is na old post leave it alone...now whos crying about it????
***Edited By: ruffian on 6/1/2006 12:28:12 AM*** Reason: add
It's from earlier this week, not old. I think most here agree that the pups are cute and sweet and wonderful like all pups. The breeders suck. And often, the pups suffer health issues because the sucky breeders didn't bother to do anything at all to ensure their good health.
good 4 you this is na old post leave it alone... -------------------------------------- lmao....this is not an old post, sorry if you didnt get the answers you wanted, but we are all just honest about our opinions. (a storm sweeps through Texas, wiping out all internet service...YAY)
"I didnt want a pure bred poodle - didnt really care for them and i didnt want a pure bred bichon, i didnt like fluffy hair they have i guess. i really dont know what made me want a mix but i did and i do , im not breeding and nor do i ever want to, so what does it hurt?"
Hmmm, how about your dogs feelings? If you don't care for either breed.... why would you get a 1/2 and 1/2? Seems kinda dumb to me.
So if your dog grows up to have "fluffy" hair like a bichon, and inherits whatever it is about a poodle that you "don't care for"..... you will dislike him and regret getting him?
Let's use our brains before posting folks. Or maybe learn a little something about our posts and the way we feel about things subconsciously. Talk about open mouth, insert foot. Whoops!
You made a few valid points but you lost me when you basically admitted to disliking your dog or potentially through his background. Either it's sad but true, or you are a hypocrite.