"cowardice asks the question, "is it safe?" expediency asks the question, "is it polite", vanity asks the question, "is it popular?" but conscience asks the question, "is it right?" and there comes a point when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular, but one must take it because his conscience tells him that it is right -- dr. martin luther king, jr.
whichever way you decide to go it will be the right decision because it is right for you.
Well since you decided not to get the puppy ,you could write a letter to the pet store and educate them about puppymill puppies and why you didnt purchase and it would be better for business if more people could shop in there with out the distraction of pitiful homeless puppies that cant help how they were brought into the world. They maynot know that they're turning customers off. Maybe suggest that they work with a rescue and re-home the less fortuate.
Dutchess-- It would take a petstore selling a lot of bags of dog food at a couple dollers profit. They sell even 1 of those puppies at full price and it is HUNDREDS of dollers in profit. That is what they are going to be looking at. That is why people shouldn't even set foot in those damned places. They are as guilty as the mills themselves.
I know it's a hard decision for you. Please however don't loose sight & forget about that pups parents. When you think you've "saved" the pup, just remember who is going to save it's parents that are still back at the mill cranking out more pups? They are still there 24/7 in cramped wire cages.........They are not even considered as dogs to the millers. They are considered as nothing more than livestock. Prisoners or greed.........
Ok, thats not actually how supply and demand works. Yes, if the demand for puppies disappears, then there would be no reason to supply them. However, if you get a few people to stop buying puppies from pet stores, then the price just goes down. So now, instead of selling two puppies for $3K, they then sell three puppies for $1K each and make the same amount. Since at $1K, there are more people willing to pay than they were at $1500, they sell more puppies, actually increasing demand. Stop a few more people from buying from a pet stores, and the price goes down again, and creates thousands of new customers. Eventually, buying a puppy is cheaper than a trip to the grocery store, and everyone has one...imagine what our shelters would look like then.
Again, I am not advocating puppy mills, but I feel for the puppies born from them. Rather than bashing the people who are compassionate enough to love them, get off your arse and do something to fix the problem. I've read some breeding practices on here that I am not impressed with at all, but those puppies are supposedly more deserving of a good home. You are telling a person to not love this puppy, and turning her back on a puppy in need was the right thing to do. How is that humane? If you want a puppy, go get one from the shelter? How about saving one from ending up in one? Is not sharing your home with a poor pup really gonna save his mom? No, it makes her pain in vain. Are children born to bad parents or in the ghetto not deserving of a loving home? You are telling someone to not give a living, breathing being a home for the sole reason of where she was born. Wow, how my life would suck if I lived by that philosophy. I was just watching Save the Last Dance, and heard a great quote: "You can't control who you love...you're not supposed to."
HeatherFeather I quote from you: "Again, I am not advocating puppy mills, but I feel for the puppies born from them. Rather than bashing the people who are compassionate enough to love them, get off your arse and do something to fix the problem."
You obviously do not know anything about me. I rarely come on to TP any more unless it is Mill related & I feel I can help educate. Many on here thankfully have helped a great deal on educating the public & I don't feel the need to jump in every time because of them. I happen to belong to a anti puppy mill forum. I have belonged to them longer than I have been a member here. So don't tell me to get off my arse & do something! You have no idea how involved I am.
I want to see an end to mills & it slowly but surely is happening. States such as Pennsylvania are trying very hard to crack down on their mills. Many mills in all states have closed due to the laws are too much for them. Then there are your old diehart millers that feel guns & mentioning how religious they are will protect them. Yes I lurk on their forums to see what they are up to from one week to the next. It has been a long hard battle but thankfully the media is getting more & more involved & exposing their yellow bellies.
Thankfully most mill dogs that get confiscated by the law end up in rescue groups. Some are bought at the mill auctions themselves to keep them from going back into the system. You would be appalled at the shape these poor dogs are in.
To not buy from a pet shop stand strong with the supply & demand issues, That Shitzu pup & others are not being "saved". The broker isn't going to take the pup back nor is the breeder. They don't care about the pup. They got their money & that is all they ever cared about in the first place. All in all the pup will keep being reduced until no one makes a profit as in zero $$ transferring hands if not sent to a shelter where it will be picked up quickly to a home.environment.
BTW......26 years ago I used to work at a famous Pet Store Chain. I have seen 1st hand what happens to the older pups...... a Whippet & a Skye Terrier in my case. I also discouraged even back then from buying their dogs & tried to refer them to reputable breeders back then. The breeds that got to old were never purchased again either by the owners....... Deemed too hard to sell....
***Edited By: rhondakbt on 6/4/2006 5:19:59 PM*** Reason: added
Heather - in theory that is excellent logic - but not how it works. The pet store isn't going to lower prices initially. They are going to have to first deal with a puppy that is older than is popular to sell. Then, they are going to stop buying puppies of that breed, or stop dealing with that breeder. People who go into a pet store willing to buy a dog are rarely turned off by the price tag on them. Unless you consider that ignorant people are going to be more inclined to take the mentality "I'm saving a life" and would be more willing to shell out the money.
I'm not condemning anyone for wanting to be compassionate towards a puppy that has gotten the short end of the stick. I'm saying either you support puppymills and BYB's OR you don't. There isn't an in between.
Again, you're saying get off your arse and do something about it... What? Trying to push through legislature isn't the answer. Government regulation doesn't fix things the way you or I hope it will. In fact, you're much more likely to find out that the government isn't going to stop where we want them to. They are going to regulate far past what we feel is comfortable. If the government starts regulating you're going to find that it's not going to cost $300 a puppy at a pet store - it's going to cost $3000 a puppy because the supply is going to dry up - and what will be left will be ONLY puppymills and BYB's. If you force everyone to be USDA licensed it just makes it easier for everyone to sell to pet stores and brokers (which you HAVE to be USDA licensed to do already).
I feel I am getting off my arse and doing something about it - I'm NOT buying pet store puppies and I'm not advocating it. I'm busy telling every person who will listen that buying pet store puppies is the problem, not the solution.
You think you're saving that ONE puppy and that you're making his mother's pain not in vain... Actually, you're probably encouraging his breeder to breed his mother another time or two or three...
Like Alicat said, you CAN get a pet store shut down very easily by not buying their dogs, and making sure others know why not to buy them.
And I go back to one of my points - by your logic, we should just go directly to the puppymill or BYB that bred that puppy and buy as many dogs as we can. We would be saving their lives - right? Or would we just be helping that breeder to make room for more badly bred puppies? Sure, we're giving great homes to the ones we did buy, but that breeder is just going to fill their vacant kennel run with more puppies because they now have more room. You've then doubled the number of badly bred dogs that breeder is responsible for bringing into the work.
I repeat - you either support Puppy Mills and BYB's or YOU DON'T. There is not a gray area here... The Mills and BYB's don't know what you're intentions are and they don't care. It's making them money either way you look at it if you're buying the puppies that they bred...
*****And I agree 110% with what Rhonda said as well!!!
***Edited By: abbylynne on 6/4/2006 5:12:48 PM*** Reason: Add to applaude Rhonda's post!!!
Please note, my post DOES NOT read "RHONDAKBT, get off your arse and do something..." It was not directed to anyone in particular, as I did not use names. Okay, so you sit on an anti-puppymill forum and post away your complaints. And you lurk on puppy mill forums. I don't know how that is helping, but if you are doing more to stop puppy mills then great! Thats awesome.
But to sit here and tell people that those dogs don't deserve to go to good homes, as I said, reminds me of Adolf Hitler. Who's to say your (no one in particular) breeding operation is not a puppy mill?
And yes there is a gray area...I just created one. If you're so dead set on puppy mills being done away with, then whats the problem with getting licensed or registered with the USDA??? Or is that cutting into your profits? There is no magical cure here. Other breeders will have to be inconvenienced in order to do away with PMs. If that inconvenience is not worth it to you, then you shouldn't be breeding either.
My problem with requiring everyone to be USDA licensed is 3 things and it has nothing to do with my discomfort -
1.) Their standards of care are basically the same as they are for livestock. AKC actually inspects closer than USDA does. The general public often thinks that a USDA licensed kennel is one that MUST be clean and everyone well care for. That's not accurate. I've been to plenty of USDA licensed kennels that are not anywhere I think puppies should be raised.
2.) Being USDA licensed allows you to sell to brokers and pet stores. By requiring everyone to be USDA licensed you're giving the average BYB an easy outlet to sell their puppies without having to take any responsibility for them.
3.) USDA doesn't have any standards are far as conformation on the dogs goes, as far as temperament goes, they don't require you have health testing done on dogs or that they are handled on a daily basis. Most puppymills pass USDA standards - and there are aspects of USDA standards that I have a problem with (you can't have personal property in the room you whelp puppies in - so that means puppies couldn't be born and raised in your bedroom or kitchen - it has to be a seperate room away from your household and daily life, which does not benefit the puppies in ANY way shape or form).
And I'm not saying those puppies don't deserve good homes. I'm saying you shouldn't PAY to give them that good home because you're simply helping to line the pockets of the lousy breeder that bred them. You can close your eyes and pretend the breeder and where that puppy came from doesn't matter and it doesn't make it any less real. You are indirectly supporting a puppymill or BYB.
I don't make profits as a breeder. I don't even break even. I don't care how much money another breeder does or doesn't make - I care about the fact that they do a lousy job breeding and are selling puppies that are subquality and putting poor, unsuspecting families through the heartache of having a dog with cruddy temperament or cruddy health and the breeder doesn't take any responsibility for it. I don't make a profit because I put the dogs first and my pocket book last so every dime I make off a puppy goes back into making sure my dogs are well cared for and have the best I can provide. I also don't breed a litter until I have at least 75% of the possible puppies spoken for before I breed the parents to insure I have good homes for every puppy I bring into the world and that I have had time to get to know their family and the family has gotten to know me and what I offer as a breeder. I sailed through my last AKC inspection (in fact the inspector told me that I had the nicest set up he'd seen in months and that my records were the best he'd seen in over a year and he's responsible for most of 3 states) so I don't have a problem being inspected. I have a problem with what being USDA licensed allows a breeder to do (sell to pet stores) and how little they actually inforce.
And Heather you didn't create a gray area - where is this gray area you created? All you're saying is "Every poor puppy needs a home and it doesn't matter if it means I'm encouraging their lousy breeder to keep breeding". I agree all puppies need homes. I don't agree a bad breeder's pockets should be lined in the process.
And what precisely do you think someone should be getting off their arse and doing to stop puppymills? I'd like to hear your ideas... I think educating others is a BIG step. I probably speak with 100 people a year on why contributing to puppymills and BYB's is a bad idea and how to identify a PM or BYB. That's more of an impact that a lot of people make. I'm not about to go and stand outside my local puppy selling pet store and pickett as that would more than likely make me look like a nut job and people wouldn't take me seriously. I have a lot of access to people looking for puppies (I get a minimum of 3 e-mails a day and 2 phone calls from people looking for a Sheltie puppy. I either take their name for my waiting list or refer them to another great breeder I know. I also take the time to tell them what to look for in a good breeder and what to look out for in a lousy one).
You're also saying you don't like PM's and BYB's - What are YOU doing other than buying their puppies and helping them continue to breed cruddy dogs???
***Edited By: abbylynne on 6/4/2006 6:02:52 PM*** Reason: fix
I'm truly sorry STDogz. I certainly did not intend for your tread to turn into a whizzing contest with HeatherFeather...
I quote HeatherFeather " Okay, so you sit on an anti-puppymill forum and post away your complaints. And you lurk on puppy mill forums. I don't know how that is helping, but if you are doing more to stop puppy mills then great! That's awesome." Oh I'd say I am doing a whole lot more than that. That is another reason I am rarely on TP. Oh & by the way I don't breed dogs! Never have, never will. I am involved in rescue & education thank you very much, I refuse to buy any merchandise from stores that sell dogs & cats. The store owner is as guilty & greedy as the miller.
I NEVER once said the mill puppies do not deserve a good home. Put your glasses on ok! I said do not buy them from the pet shop. If you do, you just made cage space for another mill pup. If people quit buying pets from pet stores the mills WILL go under. As has been said many times before, supply & demand. This goes not just for pets but anything you choose to purchase or not purchase. If enough people quit buying a certain item, then the demand is no longer there, It's not Rocket Science! Geez. Did you not READ where I said in the mean time you can get a mill pup or dog with out the miller making profit? Breed rescues, shelters etc.
Quote"And yes there is a gray area...I just created one." You created nothing! It is a clear cut black or white issue" You are either for or against millers & BYB's
Quote"If you're so dead set on puppy mills being done away with, then whets the problem with getting licensed or registered with the USDA???" Pfft! USDA is a joke! It is scary to think that it is the same USDA that checks the meat we eat! The don't have enough USDA inspectors to properly patrol their territories! USDA is a mere joke! Many turn a blind eye & pass them.
Are you referring to PAWS law here? Quote" Or is that cutting into your profits? There is no magical cure here. Other breeders will have to be inconvenienced in order to do away with PMs. If that inconvenience is not worth it to you, then you shouldn't be breeding either" A reputable breeder is not in it for profit, they are in it to better the breed mentally as well as physically & do lots of health screening & TLC. Profit is not in their vocabulary.
I never got an answer to my question. Why would you support PAWS and support petshops?
Oh, and by the way no one is saying that the puppy is less deserving of a home. Everyone is just saying that by buying that puppy, stdogz wouldn't be "rescuing" it. It would just be making space for another pup. Read the last few post. Those in the know stated the puppy would not be sent back to the puppymill. It would probably be given to shelter...hopefully if the petstore owner has a heart.
Oh, and puppies will never drop down to the price of say as a bar of soap. If pet shops had to drop prices that low than brokers would have pay less to the millers. The millers would have to produce too many pups to still be able to turn a profit. If the millers were getting less for one pup then th price of a bag of ol' roy, then they wouldn't stay in business. It would shut down the industry like we want it too.
I am not too familiar with all the aspects of PAWS, so I won't waste time defending it. I do feel that ALL breeders should have to obtain some type of license to breed a litter, that would include training, regulation and standards. This means all breeders, including our resident perfect sheltie breeder. I did not actually bring up the USDA, that was Abbylyne. Being approved by the USDA says nothing to me really, except that maybe my dog is edible? I don't eat dogs. But if thats part of the governments regulation, and its so easy to get approval, then why not? I am not a breeder, so I am not an expert on what conditions are necessary, but my guess would be that the breeder would have to provide adequate shelter from the elements (air in the summer, heat in winter), fresh water, proper food, a balance of affection and discipline, appropriate daily exercise, appropriate health testing (and the dogs must pass the testing 100%, unlike one of the breeders on here), limited number of litters per dog's life AND breeding facility per year, open to inspection at any given time with or without notice, and breeders should have to pass classes that discuss ethics, breed standards, and health of the animals. Breeders should also support the local shelter, as despite what you might think, your puppies end up there too. Is that too much to ask? Is that too much of an inconvenience for you? Or should we just sit here and tell someone about the horrors of puppymills every 3.7 days, and maybe 20% of them are convinced? Euthanization rates at shelters are still at 74.4%, so I don't think too many people are convinced.
To answer your question, I am not encouraging everyone that they should buy their dogs from pet stores. The original topic was about someone having a moral dilemma about a dog that they fell in love with and was told she was on the verge of being sent back. I don't know the pet store owner, so I'm not going to make the generalization that they are "obviously lying". If she feels guilty for leaving the pup there, then she should get it. The puppymill has already been paid. If the dog isn't sold, she might end up in a shelter (where she becomes a tax writeoff), or she might be taken in the back and recieve a shovel to the head and become an insurance claim. But the logic I've heard from some others here is like saying that CPS should require that the child of a drug user or gang member should have to be abused before they are taken away and put in a proper home. While we're at it, we should make convicted child molesters live across the street from elementary schools to see if they can be rehabilitated. Sorry, you're not going to convince me of that logic.
Hi All No worries about the thread spinning out of control. I just don't want you all to start getting upset with each other because we all do have differing opinions on what would work best for all of our individual situations. How boring would we all be if we lived the exact same lives???
Well to end the story, hubby took me to the movies this afternoon, and you have to walk through the mall to get to the movie theater. I, of course, walked right into the Pet Store and she was STILL THERE. This was about 3pm.
I told my husband that if she was still there when we left the movie, then it would be meant to be.
She was sold while we were in the movie theater. I will admit I was very sad at first but I said a little prayer for her that she is in a loving home for the rest of her life. And I am pleased that I did not contribute to the pet stores.
I did find a website that adopts out previous puppy mill dogs, has anyone ever seen it? I did a google search on it and found it. I would MUCH rather save an animal's life from a shelter, not that I wouldn't have bought this little one, but like I said, it wasn't meant to be.
I believe that all animals deserve the best in life, heck I bought rib dinners for both my guys tonight, they were thrilled :) If that means saving the little puppy in the window, then so be it.....just make sure that the decisions you make will work for your family situation....just like Scout's quote.....