I am all for responsible breeding of these kinds of breeds. All bully breeds.
Unfortunately, people who are ignorant or criminals continue to breed them, sell them or give them away.
you dont see many of MY dogs around as they come with a 1500 min price tag.
Yet, I can open a newspaper today and find pits for sale for 150.00 on up, or free.
You dont see pits in my neighborhood either. We live in a nice upscale neighborhood. Cross the tracks and you dont see any poodles.
It is irresponsible people that are making the dogs stigma.
And as I said, its not likely to change. Every morning in South Lorain (a large hispanic community) we hear roosters crowing. Now Lorain is a large city and is every bit as crime riddled at Cleveland, and there are good sides and bad to the city.
Now, you cant have farm animals in the city. I wonder what they are doing in the city?
Our city is so understaffed they dont have time to go door to door and hand out tickets for pit bull violations. They never will. We have rapes, overdoses and murders going on.
Its all about Triaging and putting the first and foremost emergency first.....and a pit in a house that isnt doing anything wrong isnt really a priorty in the police's eyes.
There are breeds that scare the beejesus out of me....two of my phobias are GSD and Chows. They never did anything to me and my sis in law has a chow and I just feel like I cant ever read it.
as for pressure....we were both wrong. There are contestests in protection sports...call fun trials. These are not real but usually fundraisers. they have goofy games like what dog can jump the highest and get a bite. and what helper can runaway furtheset from a dog.One thing have is a compression sleeve hat measures PSI. I talked to our trainer director to night who has seen many of these. A malinois named drelian...had a bite of 450 psi, a world rec. for malinois. and my trainer directors rottie, 863 psi. he claimed german shepherds around 300 psi...no loabs were tested. now you ready for the king of pressure....the american pit bull terrier....1578 PSI....a pet dog that owned by world champion belgian ring competetor in holland. I highly douby a giant schnauzer is going to even compare.
dogs with long snouts and slimmer heads have less area for muscle and more area to distibute the pressure. dogs like the german shepherd...are anatomicly not set-up to be super hard biters.
Now that all being said, How come that some pit bull supporters are so blinded by thier cause, that they will blantly denie facts that work against them. I mean they are facts.
also which one is it...are these dogs that need responsible owners and the owners should know what they are doing...because of the power of the pitbull. or are they dogs are only "precieved" as being powerful but really are less dangerous than the a dog tht bites more often...the golden retriever.
I am not a pitbull hater or basher...in fact, a pit going to be our next dog. But I am not so foolish to think that these dogs are not potentialy dangerous, that they do have the power to hurt, and even kill. There is no argument...pitbulls have killed people. that's a fact. and I think when you try to deny the truth. and push upon people things like....they are sweets as butter cups. and show pictures with them next to infants as if that really states thier nature. I think if people want to save pits... they need to stop trying to get people to listen to BS that we know has holes in it. but actually present a "good" argument. Sometimes the arguments "reach" a little.
***Edited By: gunny on 8/15/2006 1:31:53 AM*** Reason: s
FDR, Helen Keller, Jon Stewart, Alicia Silverstone, Jessica Alba, Jessica Biel, Jamie Foxx, Rachael Ray...
So what. Charles Manson could have owned a pitbull also.
another thing...this is not a war against the people...this a conservation effort. to conserve your rights and to save a breed. First you are not goign to convice anyone a pitbull is safer than a golden retriever...it's just not going to happen. i do not care if you have stats. so you need sometihng that people can bite on. Instead of trying to "prove" what a great dog the pit is. what needs to happen is some sort of mediation. some people beileve that pits are dangerous. you are not going to change thier minds. but you can try to find some other alternative to making people feel safer. maybe offering legislation that does not ban pits, but requires people to take a class to learn how to handle pitbulls and other powerful breeds or dogs in general. act like you are on thier side. Like, I am with you govenor we need to reduce bites and fatalities from dogs. but I offer another solution to a ban on certian breeds. I thin if people screaming, that "our gang" had a pit, and look at my pit sleeping with my cat pictures. or "Any dog can bite" argument. eventually the pit will be banned. the arguments are not strong enough.
"I am a nice guy, I really am. I just feel like I have to counter all of the pro-pit bull websites out there with a dose of (my) reality."
That is the weirdest thing I've ever heard. Because there are pro sites for a certain breed now we should make anti sites for them?
I wonder about people sometimes. Why would you not recommend a malamute as a pet for someone with children under 12? I know someone who has a very lovely and beautiful one, with a few kids under and a few kids over 12. He's like 8 or 9yrs old now. Very pretty boy. Her and a couple of her daughters walk him every summer night.
Gunny I'm not sure I understand your post. Being that I own Pit Bulls and always will I consider myself a supporter but don't believe I'm being blinded. How can you make general remarks about ALL supporters of the breed. Thats being narrow minded. I do not deny facts of the breed and maybe people disagree with what facts are.
There are always uneducated people out there who don't really know what they are talking about.. They say things like Pit Bulls are only mean when trained to fight, only Pit Bull mixes attack its never purebred Pits, or other such stupid statements and I always to my best to set them straight. Sometimes that hard and you just sigh, especially when its a non-pit bull owner who actually believes not all Pit Bulls are child eaters but you have to explain how poor breeding can make an unstable dog in any breed, without trying to correct them or make it too long for them to listen to. There are a lot of myths about Pit Bulls, which are not facts. The Pit Bull owners can be harder to tell, you tell them and they actually get pissed off in some cases because your saying a Pit Bull can be born with a predisposition to bite or have temperament issues, but its true about ANY breed and they don't seem to get it.
On another message board one lady was saying no dog can be bred to be human aggressive. Do you believe a statement like that? You can breed any dog to be human aggressive you like, wouldn't you agree? There are also many dogs that are bred for guard and protective instincts, but they don't believe that its all training. Which isn't true certain breeds have traits they were bred for. On another board a breeder (don't remember what breed) said aggression can't be genetic it comes from bad raising and training, they told her she was wrong but she don't want to listen. One girl on a board I remember got extremely PO'd because she said Pit Bulls only attack when made to fight, abused or imbread (her word for inbred) which was way off base, when people tried to tell her different she got really mad and said she is just trying to make things better for Pit Bulls, ect. By lying to people? By giving false facts? That will only come back to bite her in the booty and the breed too. Some people are in total denial about Pit Bulls and other breeds too, but not everybody.
They are certainly one of the most powerful breeds on the planet, therefore require a responsible owner who will train and socialize the dog and raise it correctly. But they are not raving monsters either and are like any other dog in that sense. I find them for being called so dangerous to be very forgiving. From what I understand you do protection work with Mals and GSDs and breeds like that? I would say those breeds have a much higher incident of poor temperament if not socialized. One Mal breeder said they MUST be socialized from a young age, lack there of will create an unstable dog. I've seen this first hand she wasn't kidding, where I used to live was a big puppy mill state, when the mill was busted there were Mals that had to be put down because they were never socialized. They were fear aggressive and that made them fear biters and some were unstable because at first seemed ok, just scared and then a certain or quick movement would set them off to barking very defensivly. I've seen the same thing in unsocialized GSDs. I love Mals, really most working breeds but it seems most of the time you take one and don't socialize it you have a higher chance of creating a dangerous dog then with an unsocialized Pit. So why is it that Pit Bulls are classified as more dangerous then other breeds? Are Mals not dangerous? Is any breed poorly bred/raised not dangerous? A Pit Bulls temperament is no more dangerous then any other breed, I'm not in denial its the facts. People use their pics and stories about good Pit Bulls to try and show their true temperament and not what the media makes them out to be, I don't think thats being in denial I think it is the truth i.e. FACT, that is their nature. A wellbred, well raised Pit Bull is a very trustworthy pet around children and all people, they listen very well when trained and only look to please you. This isn't denying that they can be dangerous.
If you believe they are more dangerous because they have more PSI then thats your opinion. Thats a possibility, IF the dog were to bite, but most APBTs are not biters therefore are not dangerous as a breed in whole. Obviously if they were bred and trained wrong and bit someone the sameway as another breed there could be greater damage. It shouldn't be what if or what they could do physically, if they have a stable temperament, then mentally they are not capable of attacking therefore are not a threat. Its like a powerful martial artist who's capable of killing with one blow physically but would never do such a thing to harm anyone, they could, its possible but they won't use their power like that.
Everyone knows Pit Bulls have the power to hurt and kill, no one denied that. Unless I missed it? If someone were to deny this I'd have to say it would be pretty stupid, every breed on the planet has hurt someone, anydog with teeth can and nearly every breed has probably killed someone or another animal, so yes pretty foolish to deny a Pit Bull could.
To me pics of them does state their nature. If you are getting a Pit Bull I'd assume you have researched them? They have very good temperaments, have a high pain tolerance and love and tolerance for children in general. Anyone getting an APBT should know this, its part of there temperament therefore part of their nature. Why do you believe otherwise? And do you want to get one if this is what you believe, that there nature is dangerous and aggressive? People who believe there nature is to be dangerous and attack are usually people who shouldn't have one! Like my neighbor she wanted one for a guard dog and believed they were protective dogs, none of hers ever guarded and it made her upset, she thought something was wrong with her dogs. But thats not their nature, human aggression is against their nature, especially towards a helpless infant. Most of them are very intelligent and can read people and discern character, they will never be human aggressive but if they need to protect you they will.
"FDR, Helen Keller, Jon Stewart, Alicia Silverstone, Jessica Alba, Jessica Biel, Jamie Foxx, Rachael Ray...
So what. Charles Manson could have owned a pitbull also."
You to me sound very sacastic towards Pit Bull owners/supporters. So what? The point is that not only low lifes on the "bad side" of the tracks own Pit Bulls, thats what. What is wrong with someone making this point? Far from denial, its actually fact. One poster made the point that on the bad side of the tracks is where the Pits live, while on the nice side you don't see them. No need to be sarcastic, they never said that because these people owned Pit Bulls they were good dogs, they simply stated material that showed Pit Bulls can be found on either side of "the tracks", there are is a wide variance of owners. Maybe you missed that post? I was also going to reply I have friends who live in an upscale neighborhood, I call them upidy-but they own both an APBT and an AmStaff.
Its true some people you can NEVER change their mind no matter what you tell them or what you show them. On the otherhand I've convinced a lot of people that Pit Bulls are as safe as Goldens and Labs and various other breeds. I'd say the same for a very close friend and breeder, he changed so many peoples minds about the breed some who even had bad experience with them in the past. They loved and trusted his dogs. Others see what great dogs they actually are and are later in disbelief of how they could have judged only by what they heard, some so much so that they end up getting a Pit Bull, so I'd say they do a 180 and their mind is changed. I've even convinced people who were scared of dogs (in general) that not all dogs bite/are mean with my Pit Bulls, some people find that ironic. Then others, no you'll never change, too bad they are close minded.
The intensity of the OP's dislike towards Pitbulls seems to be more then just concern for a possibly aggressive breed...there must be more behind it...possibly a "furry" rejection from a Pit? Sometimes people's lifestyles are so messed up that they have to lash out at anything that is convienent to make themselves feel more important....look at all of this attention this topic has gotten him.
Gunny - I agree with you. I have nothing at all against Pit Bulls - but I do not own one because I do not feel that I am qualified to own one. My lifestyle is not conducive to a pit bull.
I agree that the argument has to change. You are not going to convince people that "All pit bulls are sweet and loving and are just like any other dog...." There has been too much "bad press". I think that pit bull owners need to come out and say... "yes, pit bulls are special dogs... they require more vigilance, better training and an owner who understands the breed. Instead of banning the breed - why not make X number of hours of obedience training per year and annual 'pit bull registration' a must?"
Then - if dogs are reported and it's found that they haven't had the training required and that they haven't been registered... THEN have those dogs PTS or taken away from the owner... instead of taking peoples well trained, well taken care of pets away from them.
There was a time, not too many years ago, that I would agree with the general consensus that pit bulls are volatile and unpredictable. It was after getting acquainted with one and doing some research, I chose to take one in that needed a home. Even though the puppy stages was a little rough, I could tell that this dog was a super dog. Then I took on another, a female, that had some health and temperment issues. With the proper socialization, she became a wonderful dog. She's not that great around other (strange) dogs, but that is easily remedied. These two dogs have been the the easiest, less volatle, most socialable with people than any other dogs that I have been around.
And whether anyone is willing to admit, pit bulls have been guilty by association with a lower class of people. And I don't mean that by how much a person has in their bank account or their ethnic origin.
The reputation of the pit bull has been in descent the last 20 yrs. because of the type of people who breed them, raise them, and abuse them. I mean, they were once considered the "Nanny Dog" for crying out loud! They didn't go from Nanny Dog to Vicious Killer all on their own.
People meet my dogs for the first time with apprehension only to discover that they're just family dogs like their dogs at home. A lot of people's opinions are changing about pit bulls and more average families are adding them to their homes and trusting them around their kids.
Behind every incident where pit bull have attacked or have bitten family owners, there's mitigative evidence of irresponsibility, not blatant excuses.
As soon as the lower class of people find pit bulls to be less appealing, the sooner the general population will stop associating pit bulls with gangs and drug dealers. Then pit bulls will be raised to be the "Nanny Dog" again.
With being said, "It's all about how they're raised," that means breeding, socialization, environment, commitment, and good old common sense.
"I agree that the argument has to change. You are not going to convince people that "All pit bulls are sweet and loving and are just like any other dog...." There has been too much "bad press"."
No one is trying to do, all Pit Bulls ARE NOT sweet and loving, some are down right nasty and dangerous, they would bite you before they would sniff you.
Saying not ALL Pit Bulls are vicious unpredictable dogs is much different then saying all Pit Bulls are sweet!!!!
I've changed a lot of peoples minds on the breed, most recently a family staying at the same motel when we went to a dog show, they had a lot of questions and misconceptions about them being unpredictable, having lock jaw, being the #1 biter, well now they know the truth and believe and got to meet our dogs. Many peoples minds can still be changed, its up to responsible owners to do this by a good presentation of the breed.
Since I just heard the door slam shut and went and found a package for the 3rd time since last tues, it reminded me that our UPS delivery man also has a changed view on the breed. At first he was very hesistant and weary of the dogs, aren't they Pit Bulls, will they bite, ect. It only took 5 mins of explaining and him seeing the dogs themselves, seeing is a big part of believing for many people. Now he opens the front door and puts our packages inside with the dogs in the house and isn't the least bit concerned. When they are outside he isn't at all concerned either, our older female even jumps up in his truck for attention which he glady gives them petting them and walking up to the door, even if they are outside.
"Instead of banning the breed - why not make X number of hours of obedience training per year and annual 'pit bull registration' a must?"
I know if they start bullcrap BSL like that here we will be fighting it!!!! Why do I need hours of obedience training every year and have to register my dog while people with other breeds don't? Thats BS!! I'm perfectly capable of training my own dogs like I've been doing for years and shouldn't be required to do any special registration! When they get their rabies shot they also get their lis through Humane Society and the money goes to help the shelter so they shouldn't be required anything other, thats even optional.
I really don't want some idiot telling me whats the best way to train my dog even if they are qualified and not another idiot trainer I really don't want to waste my time going to hours of unnessecary ob training.
Its like those annoying people at petsmart, thats why I haven't been back since like july of LAST YEAR. All they try to do is sell you their ob class and tell you why you and your dog need it. While it may be helpful for some people I've actually heard from a lot of dog owners (pit bulls and otherwise) that the trainers were not very good trainers and didn't know what they were doing. Anyway they are too pushy! They ask you about every 10 mins do you want to sign up for our classes and all this. Last year I and a friend were there with 2 three month old pups. One lady asked I said, No Thanks I do all of their training myself, I've always done ob training for my dogs. Then she said well training is needed for all dogs, especially for a dog like a Pit Bull. I said I do it MYSELF, I've owned and trained Pit Bulls for a long time and have been breeding and showing for awhile and haven't had any problems. Then she said well she's been into training for however long (she was some young girl but don't remember how long she said) but she always still does a class for socialization. No means, NO! But she didn't get it. I responded by saying what do you think I'm doing now? She's being socialized just by being here, they receive more then enough socialization at shows where there are 100s of people and dogs and get plenty of on walks.
If you feel you can't properly train, handle and socialize a Pit Bull then you shouldn't own one!! Really you shouldn't own any dog if you aren't capable of training that dog.
Besides that people won't change their views, they will still push for banning if thats what they want, others will still think Pit Bulls are all mean, why wouldn't they? It won't change their minds! Thats why they have to be reg isn't it? Because they are dangerous? They need special training because they are unpredictable. I'm sure they will believe it just proves their point. Some cities already have it where you have to reg. pit bulls and they have to wear a special collar, because they are DANGEROUS thats how its viewed by the city and the public and it really hasn't descreased anything as far as bites go.
***Edited By: true_pits on 8/15/2006 2:02:36 PM*** Reason: ..