I am a breeder/Fancier/handler of show standard poodles. If anyone thinks this is a money making scheme, please read this post.
Original Investment - 1 Female Standard Poodle $1000.00 and first pick of the litter puppy $1500.00
Health testing to get to breed said female: CERF - $30.00 OFA Hips and Elbows $272.50 Thyroid Panal - $100.00 von Wilderbrands - $100.00 Brucellosis Test - $30.00 Shots, Heartgard, frontline for the initial 2 years before a breeding can even happen - $597.60 Stud fee - $1200.00 Travel cost to take her to the Stud in a different state (I am in Virginia, stud is in PA) $724.00 (Hotel for 5 days, gas, food)
This does not take into account: Food, Grooming shampoos, conditioners, clippers, combs, brushes, going to the Vet for small illness's, ear aches, broken nails, fever etc. Mind you, the cost is not included if the female would need a C-Section or the puppies would need intensive care right after birth.
This also does not take into account if I was to show her, as I am doing with my other female. Just this last weekend a show cost me over $600.00 to put a championship on my female.
So all the folks out there that gasp at $1000.00, $1500.00 or even $2000.00 a puppy and think a breeder is getting rich. If a breeder is making money on a litter, she is lying to you or she is a bad breeder. Because breeders only make enough to cover expenses!
Icyhound says she will not go down on her price for the two males. You damn right! She has invested ALOT of money to get her dogs to where they are now and like her, I would rather keep a puppy then be a 'Bargain Basement K-Mart Breeder" A good breeder, breeds to enhance, not to turn a profit on a puppy. If this man wants to get a bargain dog, go to a rescue, a shelter. But please do not expect a breeder to 'Barter' with like a fish monger wife on a back ally street. Icy, tell him to go flip. That you are not K-Mart and will not conduct business with anyone that questions your ethics or policies!
why do breeders always factor in food, toys, and regular veterinary care like vaccines and heartworm/flea tick preventative into the cost of breeding ? those are normal costs for every dog/pet owner and i don't see how it relates directly to breeding costs. you would have those costs whether you bred your dog or not so why factor that in when determining how much it costs you to breed ?
What a great post. These are the costs that no one takes into consideration when looking for a well bred puppy. No person who breeds should stint on any of these things, including finding a stud dog that compliments your female. There is a real art to that, by the way, and one that takes many, many hours of research (another added cost).
Thank you for posting this. I commend you for your fine breeding program.
Scout, I must take issue with your reply. I am a professional groomer and many, many, many people do not invest in flea treatment, heartworm preventative and get only a rabies shot because they are forced to do so. And the food they use is the cheapest they can lay their hands on. There was even one client that underfed her standard poodle to keep it under 35lbs to get the cheaper grooming rate. To have my females and males in top form to be able to breed the top shelf puppies, I personally invest in the best food for their needs, and all shots and preventative care. So no, the cost of my everyday mainenance is steep, besides the vitamins, the concept a b$t$h and Raz that my females get before esterus and raz and vitamins after conception. My females also get the newest parvo/distemper right before esterus for extended immunity protection to lend to their puppies while they are inside her and afterward through her milk. Then there is my vet costs for the puppies in docking tails and dewclaws, first shots and any other needs, such as a top brand puppy food, pablem and stuffies/toys to make absolutely sure they are the best and most sound puppies on the ground.
So yes, normal costs are included in each whelping endevor. I am sure if I think more on this I could add the long distance call charges to talk with prospective clients and other added costs that pop up at the moment.
Since I was almost accused by some of being a bit money hungry and uncaring.
Semin + Transport - 1000 Pegesterone testing - 1 1/2 hour trip + 47 bucks a pop x 4 Implant - 800 Do I include the extra food? She ate 3 cans of merricks a day at 1.87 a pop per can plus 3 cups of dog food. Her normal food intake is 2 to 2 1/2 cups. Csection - 1000
5 puppies - 1 to stud dog owner, 2 with me, 2 for sale
Microchiped each puppy at 10 bucks a pop Registered each one at 15 bucks Registered each microchip at 12 bucks Vaccinated each pup
Shadows tail surgery for the last 2 vertibra - 400 dollars
Food, toys, treats, not including that but the pups are now 6 months so tehy eat as much as adults. If I started calculating food after lets say 3 months, we have 3 monthx x 6 cups a day of food between the two.
Do I add the extra kennel addition I did for them? That was 500 bucks.
Etc etc etc, whatever and all that good stuff. I figure if I have two litters of at least 8 puppies and only keep one pup from each litter selling the other 14 at 1k each at 9 weeks I will make money.
All that list is nice, and as a breeder, I truly understand.............BUT, people looking for a PET PUPPY normally really don't care, unless they have been burned health wise by a byb puppy. Really, most of those thing are your choice to do or not do, and as a 'responsible breeder' you choose to do more than others.
However, for how long have breeders been whining 'It's not about the money. We lose money.'
Well, good job. Now people think breeders are supposed to lose money, and do it for the passion of the breed.
Bottom line, 'extras, premium food, health testing, showing' or NOT.... people are only willing to pay XXXX over what the average price in your area for your breed is. That means if you have a lot of byb's with standard poodles that are selling them for $300 out of the paper.....well they ARE going to question your price and many WILL go to the byb over you, because they think you are too high.
People, on with limited incomes rather gamble with a poorly bred puppy. A thinking may be, I could buy 2 or 3 byb puppies for the price of 1 show breeder puppy.
***Edited By: alicat1 on 10/18/2006 9:14:34 AM*** Reason: s
Those are the risks, to be sure. But I personally will not put a dog with my kennel name out there that is anything less then 100% sound according to the health tests and hereditary investigations I have studied in their bloodline. Because I do go the extra mile in showing conformation and all the little health testing extras, my dogs go with a stamp of health gaurantees (spell?). If there are breeders out there turning their dogs over for $300.00, then so be it, but after the new owner has to pay thousands in health related vet bills, they will come to me the next time and get a healthy dog and spend the money for the true worth of the dog and bloodline. I do not worry for such things. I would rather keep an entire litter then do a blue light special just to get cold cash in my hand. Besides, if a person is willing to pay for a good dog, I know they will care properly for their investment and give them a good ever home and proper care. Spending that kindof money lends towards taking care of the investment.
i'd go for the higher priced puppy with all the health testing behind it. with many purebreds having the health problems they do i'd spend much more in vetting than the difference in price for a puppy from poorly bred parents with health issues. that's if i wasn't going the shelter or rescue route.
I know, I am just being devils advocate, but most people on here are fairly educated, above average pet owners. Most people on HERE are likely to go for the higher priced well bred dog. I don't think that is the norm.
What is also part of it is that not every byb puppy from a litter of 8 or 10 is going to have problems. Even a crappy bred dog is likely to have 1/2 of the litter or more that turns out to be a perfectly fine, healthy pet. That is why I refer to it as 'gambling'.
I am saying all this, because I think it is true, but I am on the high end for the price of my boxers because I do put a lot in to my dogs and I don't use my male I go to the best Champion I can find for each girl.
So, I undertand both sides. I understand why people charge a lot, but I also understand why people have a heart attack when I tell them the prices on a pet dog that they need to spay/neuter, and why they go elsewhere.
See what irks me more than people passing up my puppies for lower priced puppies, is when people go to pet stores and pay MORE than I am charging for puppymill puppies. Which are not only lessor quality, but supporting parents life of hell.
You get what you pay for. If people want to by BYB puppies, fine, but they need to put some money aside to pay for the horrendous vet bills they might encounter. Either that, or the dog will get sick, injured, whatever, and the owner will dump it on a shelter or rescue because the don't have the money to care for it. Either that, or just let the dog suffer. People who feel a cheap dog is a good purchase are sadly mistaken.
I would never take the chance. Every single rescue IG I have that came from crappy breeders has had massive medical problems. The one I bought from a responsible breeder is now 14, still has all his teeth, and has had zero medical problems. See a pattern here?
Personally, I always make note of how many toys and training devices I go through. Not all of my money goes back into just breeding...I have dogs to take care of to so that they can continue to live happily, and produce strong healthy driven puppies.
Feeding a crap food isn't going to help that, and not letting them play and exercise won't either.
***Edited By: huskyhauler on 10/18/2006 2:07:38 PM*** Reason: +
Those figures are misleading. You donít take in to account that most will breed their dog several times. Most of the tests are only done once and their costs would have been covered by the first litter. Especially with larger breeds who can have an average of 8 or more pups in a litter. Also, not all tests you mentioned are needed for all breeds.
The cost of the dog should not be factored in since most that breed do it because they already have a dog that was already paid for and would have been fed, taken to a vet when needed and pampered regardless. Even those who get dogs for that specific reason still would have made that money back after the first liter. Any additional litter is mostly profit.
The stud fees and other cost that were mention are not typical either. Most own their own male or get a stud locally. Fees are usually the price of a pup or a pick of litter. If you got 8 pups in a litter, it is no biggy.
Not saying it canít cost that much, but for the average breeders who probably sell 90 percent of the dogs out there, the costs do not come anywhere near that. If it was this costly, I wouldnít have been breeding for 16 years. In case you wonder, I do all the necessary tests, breed quality dogs and somehow manage to make a nice profit too.
Every breed is different too, and it also depends on how much your vet charges. I go to several good vets and if one is $30 less for a certian proceedure than the other, I use that one for the day.
As far as stud fees, I NEVER do pick puppy because for a health tested AKC Champion Boxer stud fee average in my area is $600, I get at least twice that for a puppy (on average), and I have had litters as large as 11 with 9 surviving.
I also don't do AI or frozen semen, I don't think they have as large of litters IF the pregnancy takes at all. I rather drive 12 hours each way and stay at a hotel to use a living stud and do a live cover-- that is just me.
***Edited By: alicat1 on 10/18/2006 5:07:49 PM*** Reason: x
Scout, I must take issue with your reply. I am a professional groomer and many, many, many people do not invest in flea treatment, heartworm preventative and get only a rabies shot because they are forced to do so. And the food they use is the cheapest they can lay their hands on.
jocquelle i have been in the veterinary field for 20+ years of my life now. i know how people care for their animals. the people who go above and beyond , the ones who do the bare minimum, but the majority of people fall somewhere in the middle. however, your post was specifically geared to the cost of "breeding". the costs you listed :
Shots, Heartgard, frontline for the initial 2 years before a breeding can even happen. Food, Grooming shampoos, conditioners, clippers, combs, brushes, going to the Vet for small illness's, ear aches, broken nails, fever etc.
are what the majority of pet owners do for their pets. that is the normal, expected part of pet ownership. the only costs that should be factored into your list of expenses are the costs you incur directly for breeding. for example: the genetic health testing, show and stud fees. i am sure there are many more. these are things that are paid out above and beyond normal pet ownership.
sorry but i am just not buying it, not a bit. if you would do these things for a dog you owned that you weren't planning on breeding then you cannot justify it as a breeding cost.
juno wrote: Most of the tests are only done once and their costs would have been covered by the first litter. Especially with larger breeds who can have an average of 8 or more pups in a litter.
The cost of the dog should not be factored in since most that breed do it because they already have a dog that was already paid for and would have been fed, taken to a vet when needed and pampered regardless.
i agree a hundred percent with both those statements. OFA hips and elbows are one time tests , unless you do prelim's on them. von Willebrands is also a one time test for those breeds who need it done. what tests are done vary breed to breed, some tests like CERF and thyroid are yearly.
i don't see how you can't make some money from it. especially for breeders of breeds that average 6+ pups a litter. smaller breeds that only average between 1-4 pups in a litter i can see it may be near impossible if done properly. i can understand not wanting to say whether a breeder makes any money or how much they make because then people might think their primary goal to breeding is money. but i think if you breed the way you do jocquelle, or icy does and a few others on this board, then there should be no shame in admitting to making some money if you do.