I have two Border Collies that both have working instinct, there are some that still have it. But a lot of them have been breed for conformation in the show rings now and at that kind of shows working does not matter. They do have shows where dogs do work and are judged on their ability to preform.
Hoosgow, As a show breeder myself I must say that I don't agree with you at all. The great thing about American is your entitled to your opinion and that's all that it is...is YOUR opinion. Unless you know every show breeder in America, Every puppy that they produce...you can't possible even state the following: "The average back yard breeder produces a better quality pup then the average show breeder" What statistic's are you basing this on? Perhaps you had a bad experience with a show breeder or maybe were shunned by one? Who knows but in any case your statement is way far out there IMO...see, like I said we can all have our opinions and my thougts on your statement are my opinion. One thing I do agree with you about is that most (emphasis the word MOST) backyard breeders breed randomly like you said. Only problem with this is they breed randomly to ANYTHING, or the most convenient stud. Do you health test all your dogs? If so, I applaud you. If not, then you can't possibly say that your dogs that you breed are healthier than a show breeders that actually tests the dogs they plan on breeding. How could you know your dogs are genetically free of certain things if you don't test? Surely not by looking at their performance or their outward qualities. What you CAN'T see can hurt your breeding program. Yes, show breeders NEED a lot of work in the area of coming forward about problems in their own breeding program but I highly doubt that most are in it just to win in the ring. Take me for instance...sure it's nice to finish a champion but my first priority is the health of my breeding program. Most show breeders aren't stupid enough to take a beautiful male in the ring, finish him knowing he has severe underlying health issues and then offer him at stud. That would come back to bit them 100 fold! They would quicker just take him out of the breeding program (responsible show breeders anyway). Yes, there are some that really have no business being breeders at all...but not all.
"backwards? i don't think so. how many of the terriers can still hunt or go to ground? how many otter hounds even know what an otter is much less know how to kill one? look at the Vizsla and the Weimeraner. they have been big hits in the show ring and now anytime you want one for the actual field you have to be sooooo careful which lines you get a pup from because for the most part the breed in this country has had the hunt/point bred right out of it. in this rare case the brits and germans have it right. in many of their show rings a dog must be able to perform that task for which it was bred before a show championship will be awarded. " Hoosegow, What breed of dog do you have? If you have a dog from the herding group, you might have noticed that the dog nips at you and tries to herd you etc, same with livestock guardians and all other groups. A dog just doesn't lose the natural abilities it was bred for. Even after selective breeding, dogs still retain most of the qualities of the wolf. The only thing to consider is that, dogs coming from show lines tend to be much more manageable and not as concentrated on the job they were bred to do as working lines.
"i don't know many boxers still herding, actually i didn't even no boxers were used for that. but i will tell you i have seen a bear ride a bicycle in my life. now that's good breeding " What?!? Herding?!?! The Boxer is a mastiff type dog, so looking at that, i'd probably say that they were used for protection or fighting etc.
How many dogs are actually used for their original performance anymore as opposed to those that are only used for show and pets? If we don't need them to perform, does it matter if they can? I don't think it does.
Can't speak for my pure bred Pyrs being able to hang out in the mountains to gurd the herds, but they sure make sure they "herd" any newcomer to the house! Place their bodies between the stranger and the fdamily member, gently guiding them away from us.
I would rather purchase a dog from a reputable breeder than a BYB. I want my dogs to come from great pedigrees, have health testing done and know the temperments. BYB's tend to leave all of that out. They usually want to make a quick buck, don't care how breeding is done except to only put a male and female together to have puppies. My dogs are not from champion/show lines but all the health/temperment testings are done which is what I want out of the dog I purchase.
"The average back yard breeder produces a better quality pup then the average show breeder." 75% of all statistics are made up. I'm sure a chihuaspaniel or a pekingmastiff that those backyard breeders cook up are MUCH better than the American Bulldog with 5 champions in his bloodline. MUCH better!
My opinion is probably not worth anything since I'm new,but I hear lots of bad things about BYBs.My aunt and uncle recently bought 3 puppies a pug,a bulldog,and a border collie. Each puppy is from a different breeder,but they all have champion lines in them especially the Border Collie. His lines are really pure. They had to sign a contract for him because since his lines were so pure,if they weren't going to show them,they have to neuter him to prevent getting unpure blood in the lines.It's the craziest thing,but let me tell you one thing,you will never find a more brilliant dog anywhere,he's got some kind of brains.
Tomato, if left at it long enough, I'm SURE someone will come up with something that is the size of a Cocker Spaniel that can hunt lions and work like a Newfie on the water~ lol Then again, I'd sure like to have a Giant breed that was toilet trained at birth, doesn't shed, never chews on anything when teething, refuses to dirty his or her paws on digging or refuses to bark unless we are in dager of our lives at that exact second. A perfect babysitter would come in handy when the grandchildren are here and hey, I can sure use some help on those floors! What ELSE are those thick, non-shedding tails meant for? I'm really not trying to pick on anyone. I have had dogs in my home since the age of 6 months (and that was MANY years ago). I had always been the proud owner of "Heinz 57s" who were rescued from the local shelter or was a stray we took in and loved and cared for. It wasn't until we were given a wonderful, pure bred Black Lab that we ever had a pure bred dog in our home. I had tended her with TLC through 4 weeks of care after she escaped her owner and was used as bait for fighting dogs. We loved her and raised her for 16 years with own "human" kids. After we lost Sheba at 17 years of age, we were back at the shelter for another pound puppy. Storm was Black Lab, Great Dane or Bull Mastiff mix. He developed cancer and only lived to be 9 years of age, but grew up with our grandchildren. My Pyrs are from very prestigeous bloodlines. They are loved no more nor less than those who preceeded them in our home. I think the whole point is that if you want a pet to love, adopt from rescue or a shelter. If you want "pure bred" go to a reputable breeder.
My female rottweiler was from a BYB because I didn't know any better at the time. She was my first dog I ever had. There was no health testing done on her, no temperment testing done, and her hips weren't OFA certified. Her temperment wasn't too good with strangers. Her hips weren't all that great, she had lots of problems. And we had to put her to sleep last April at the age of 6 because she ended up having cancer. So this is why I purchase my dogs from reputable breeders who do all of the testings on their dogs. I had a dog from a BYB and her life was cut short because all they wanted to do was make a quick buck.
here it is. first, the reason that i believe that your average backyard breeding is better is simple. if it is truly a random breeding, then the chances of a better pup are increased from a breeding that was done for color or conformation. 2nd. breeding for performance...I run shorthairs and a viszla. if the dogs are not healthy and sound they cannot perform to the level that is expected of them. when we talk about health there are more traits at stake then just hips, eyes, bite or other joints. there are also things like reproductive efficiency and ability, overall vitality, energy levels, metabolism levels all sorts of issues come into focus. you want specific examples? iw ill lead off with something that I personnally know about. A well known show person had a 2 year old gsp show champion. she wanted to try to put a field title on it. sent it to a trainer, within a couple of weeks the dog could hardly walk. this was not from hard running, when you are training a new dog everything is on a lead and in only 15-20 min sessions. the trainer took it in, had 2 different vets diagnose OCD. the woman picked up the dog and later called back saying that her vet said it was not ocd and she was going to breed it anyway. well, even if it was misdiagnosed and it was not ocd, the dog definatly had such a bad joint problem that ic could not even perform as well as most pet dogs! yet this is a CH that is out there spreading its blood around. and no, this instance is NOT unusual with these dogs that are bred for show. here are a couple of links that give some good examples of the type of thing that i am talking about. one, the obvious phenotypical delta found in terriers caused by show breeders and 2, a wonderful thing that some folks did with the dalmation that was stopped by a majority of the the "purist" show community within the breed. http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm http://www.dogstuff.info/backcross_project_nash.html you cannot deny the facts as they stand and the attitude IS there. A dog cannot and will not perform if it is not healthy AND full of vitality. yet with enough dye and long enough hair most dogs can stand or walk in front of a show judge.
It is less likely for a tested dog to spread genetic problems if the breeder is responsible. The AKC is not the "breeder police." Are there BYB that are responsible.? YES. Are they common? NO. It is more common to find responsible show breeders and responsible field breeders. These breeders are judged by a panel of peers. Any other BYB has no one to answer to. I know a woman who breeds champion pomeranians. She has wonderful poms as far as her friends know. She has breed one with male that her kennel produce who has one testicle. One of her dogs can't keep its tongue in its mouth and is a very commonly used bitch. This AKC show breeder of poms also breeds yorkshire terriers and rottwielers for cash to keep up her poms. I was really disgusted when I learned of these things and stopped attending shows with her and helping around her kennel. On the other hand...I know people who have bought from BYB whose dogs have terrible health problems. They don't even look like the breed intended. When seeking a breeder it is buyer beware. I do believe that the most likely place to find a responsible breeder is from a person who has to prove their dogs be it in the show ring or field tests.
Hoosgov, OMG I cannot believe how ignorant you are!! Do you think any of the backyard breeders that breed know the history of bad things in their mixed dogs? NO! I have a very beautiful dog and he has had no health problems at all, I have had people ask me if I was going to breed him......guess what I say...NO!!!! He came from the shelter with no background, I don't know what congenital defects may be in his lines that might skip over him and go into his pups, my dogs are fixed because I would not want to bring more dogs with unknown backgrounds into this world. Hoosgov, When you have to take a 4 month old puppy in and put it to sleep because someone was stupid enough to breed two dogs who are going to make cute puppies, that it caused congenital defects in her throat making it so she couldn't drink water, which caused her to have pnuemonia her entire life. That dog suffered her entire life until I had to take her in and put her to sleep because she was in so much pain. BYB are making bad puppies. You talked about how that person continued to breed even though her dog had problems? That is bad but most BYB don't even know what they are sending around into all these poor little pups! You are supporting HORRIBLE people who are ignorant and care nothing about the lives of the puppies that they give away!
supermommy, I agree with you to a certian point. from a field line yes a show line? i still question that. are there good show breeders out there? yes, but they are the exception rather then the rule. lets talk about testing since everybody seems to be into that. is testing good? yes, absolutly i agree. does that mean that you have a healthy dog? not necessarily. first of all, testing for hips is subjective, not objective and a lot has to do with how the x-ray was taken. i know of dogs that have ofa'd poor, then submitted another set of x-rays that have come back excelent. the deflection of the legs and the degree of sleep the dog is in all have to do with how the x-rays come out. what do i look for? much more important to me is were the parents, grand parents and other dogs in the pedigree still performing at 7,8 and 9 years old? if so, the chances of GENETIC joint issues is almost nill. you can't hide that in the field, you can and they do in the ring. what about non-testable health traits? cancer suseptability, vitality, an agreeable disposition that lends itself to working with a trainer for complicated series of tasks rather then just the basic obedience that is required in a show ring. if you breed for conformation, size, exagerated traits (the most smashed face on a pug or the right # of curls in his tail) you will lose breed vitality and health. that is a fact of biology. it may not be noticible in the first generation or the second but you are certianly going down the wrong road. if show breedrs are so worried ad truly care for the breed, answer this. why don't they breed for pugs and english bulldogs with smaller heads so that bitches can whelp naturally? how about for a different shaped eye that would last the dog a little longer? how about for chihuahua's that don't have screwed up patella's instead of surgicly fixing and still showing them? the list of breeds that are not bred for the righ traits is intensly long. and it all leads to breeding for form before function when form should FOLLOW funtion.