You have said that you have not yet bred your viszla because you are not sure if she will be good enough. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE!!!! Most BYB's do not wait, they just have a purebred dog that they want to make some money off of.....and for the most part, you are lucky if what you get is a purebred puppy. You keep talking genetics but what you are not considering is that most BYB's know nothing of genetics, so it is not that they breed better dogs or have a better chance at it at all. Most GOOD breeders do not just breed to conformation, but also to maintain good health lines as well, MOST GOOD breeders will have the animal fixed and either keep it or sell it as a pet if it throws an animal with a genetic problem or does not meet the standard. I think you need to do more research and talk to some truly qualified breeders before you come in here yapping about BYB's and how they have a better chance of good pups. I can honestly say with the frame of mind and the attitude you present in here, I am not sure I would want a puppy of yours. Good bloodlines do make a good difference.......argue genetics or science or biology or whatever with that!
I have nothing against you for what you are trying to say about genetics and BYB's. Just from my experience of having a dog from a BYB, all of her health problems and having to put her to sleep at the age of 6 for cancer. I would never purchase from anyone unless they do all of the required tests on their dogs. Show breeders just aren't the only ones who do health testing, reputable breeders do too. My dogs are not show nor champion but their breeders do all of the required tests. With the breed I own right now (rottweiler and boxer), my main concern is temperment with the rottweiler breed. A BYB is not going to care what the temperment of the 2 dogs are that they breed. My female rottweiler was a prime example. Her temperment was ok but not like my male rottie's temperment. That there just proves what can happen when temperment is not thought of when breeding. If you breed a bad temperment and a good temperment, there is no saying what the pups are going to be like. Its a 50/50 chance what you are going to get. If I know that the generations of my dog all had excellent temperments, its almost 100% that my dog will too.
If you have a problem with how people are breeding there dogs, complain to the specific breed's club. They are the ones that write the standards. They could write standards that relate to the things you are saying breeders ignore, but they don't.
redrose46, one more time. there are NO absolutes. even some of our dogs do not turn out as well as we would like. the point here is what to breed for and the fact that the show people tend to breed for the wrong things while getting their nose in the air about how good and healthy their dogs are verses anyone elses while they TEND (not always) to have the poorest breeding stratigy of anybody out there (with the possible exception of the true "puppy mills".). in nature, "random" breeding are to be preferred to limited choice type breedings for the genetic health of the population. go back and read the article on the dalmations. it was the overwhelming membership of the parent orginization that convinced the akc to change thier acceptance of the F5 generation's progeny as registerable. a small group of people (that were probably even show related) actually cared enough to develope a breeding program that TRULY would improve the overall health of the breed. they did the work, proved their theorum and were then shot down by the elitist purists who would rather ignore the fact that dalmations as a breed have a heritable health problem that could not nor ever would be gotten rid of within the breed. these are the types of folks that y'all are defending and if you still do, well then we will just have to agree to disagree.
Had a semester of genetics in college. The reason I said that random breeding of dogs wouldn't do the defects any good is because it would take an extremely long amount of time for that to work. It is better to get rid of irresponsible breeding practices for the time being. Also, there is not place where dogs could still be pets and breed randomly. Atleast not any where near my home. Since dogs are domesticated..letting a chihuahua run wild and breed randomly would probably kill it. They are not fit for the great outdoors. This is true of many breeds.
this sounds like the field bred is better than show bred argument; better to breed for working ability and health than health, temperament, and conformation. it really depends on what the dog will be used for. i sure don't agree with what has happened to the english bulldog, but i think there is room for both lines. ran into this when looking for my labrador. i agree with the dalmatian breeding to help that problem.
What in the **** do you think BYB's are breeding for?? To make a good litter? To have the next litter be better than there parents? To have overall healthy puppies that everyone will enjoy? NO!!!!! They breed, good or bad, to make money. It is all chance that they take and most don't even think about the chance they are taking. Tell me how BYB's are making good decisions by breeding whatever together. If you still think that BYB is better then show breeders, please come into my shelter and tell all of the BYB dogs that they are better then show dogs and that is why they are so wanted and live in a 5x10 kennel awaiting everyday with an unknown fate. BYB and bad owners are the result of most of the dogs in the shelter. Here is a question that you obviousely have not thought of yet......genetically, lets just say that random breedings with god knows what is better.....tell me a new owner is supposed to do with their perfectly healthy dog that has tons of behavior problems because those were not bred out???
I figured I would toss in my opinion on this topic. "that means if you breed for conformation, color anything of that nature, HEALTH WILL SUFFER. the only true test of a dogs health is long term physical performance of that dog and its line." Hoosgow, you say that 'average' show breeders only breed for conformation or color? Yes, most will breed based on good conformation set forth by the breed standard, based on the original breed standards. So, most average breeders are at least maintaining the characteristics of the breed. You cite the bull terrier and dalmations as examples of breeds that have been 'hurt' by this strict adherence to form over function. Actually, both those breeds have been affected by bad breeding from BYBs. The dal because of breeding explosions with '101 dalmations' and the pit cause of fighting. Based on the exclusive definition of BYB, they don't care about 'long term performance' of the line. They care about how many pups two random dogs can produce. As such, 'average' BYB take two random dogs that 'look pretty' and make some pups. So if a dog has a larger head, or a pushed in nose that deviates wildly from 'show' standards, but it still looks cute... who cares right? Well now you have dogs that STILL aren't high on performance, and have all sorts of body structure out of whack that will make them EVEN WORSE for performance. Second, my dad owned a Viszla out of 'show' bloodlines. And guess what, he took him out hunting several times each year. This dog could go to a perfect point and hold it till my dad came up. He lived to a ripe old age of 15 yrs old. My dad made sure he researched the breeder and it WAS NOT a BYB, or else I am sure, the dog would have spent the first few months of its life in surgery to correct all its health issues. By your logic, if a BYB took two RANDOM dogs, lets say a Viszla and a Mastiff. He thinks the offspring will be 'pretty'. Both dogs are good at what they do, have good performance. But you are not guarenteed that the mix will go to point or be good a fighting, so whats the point? From the web: "Crossing a pug with a Pekingese, for example, could produce disastrous consequences. Both breeds have eyes that easily pop out of the socket to rest on the cheek. Surgery is required to fix the injury, often at the cost of the dogs' sight. Breeding the two could yield a dog that literally has its eyes falling out, said Manners. "
yes pearl, you are right. in very simplistic terms that is the argument. breeding for performance requires good health. breding for color or conformation does not. look out, i am about to start another thread for y'all to think about!
but what about dogs for companions? we can't all own a field bred lab. i'd go nuts. so would the dog. there is just as an important need for healthy dogs that are not working dogs. and, it is possible to breed for health along with conformation. one doesn't rule out the other if it is done right.
Pearl, there is nothing wrong with breeding for a companion dog. several breeds were developed for just that. That is why my dogs do not go to pet homes, they would just not be a good fit. yes you can breed for both health and color, but a large percentage of show folks want to win at whatever cost and so they don't do that. the genetic faults that they have and carry on can be hidden in the show ring. again. fortunatly we do not have that luxery in the field. black pugs are a big thing these days, though they are born without tear ducts in a breed that already has huge eye problems in the "healthy" specimens. surgicly fixed patellas in chi dogs, the same issue. yet they go on to be a "champion" and everybody wants to breed to a champion and the folks that have them will not admit to the true faults of the dog. my biggest issue is that they then portray themselves to the public as mighty show people and keep their skeletins in the closit both figurativly and literally
Thank you for an interesting topic, hoosgow. I'm curious...you breed performance dogs and you've made the comment that "the dogs that i produce would not make good pets" (hoosgow, msg 76). What is the fate of the dogs that don't make the cut? Good show breeders breed to the standard, with an understanding of the original purpose for which the breed was developed. We consider health, temperament, type and soundness before breeding a litter. Knowing that the vast majority of the dogs that we breed will someday live in pet homes, breeding quality pets, carefully screening homes and educating the public about our breed is also a big part of what good show breeders do. There are good breeders and there are bad breeders of both show and field dogs.......both show breeders and field breeders can make an important contribution to their breeds.
my black pug has tear ducts. don't know where you get that. his grandparents eyes are good, as are his parents. what statistics do you have saying the majority of show people are like that? what research? my lab came from a breeder who shows, and her puppies are sold to people who hunt. her father is from a kennel that both shows and hunts their dogs. (she's a companion for us, no hunting or showing.) i see a lot of generalizations from you.
The dogs that do not make the cut? well that really depends on the situation. in the lines that i am involved in, genetic dieases have largle been eliminated. because i breed for trial performance, the dogs that "don't make the cut" usually fail because they do not run big enough, or have bold enough attitudes (not agreesive, bold!). as a result of that, the dogs that we don't like tend to make extremly good hunters and are sold to that market as started or finished dogs (depending on the level they had reached when the decision was made to remove them from the program). occasionally we can identify these dogs as 7or8 week old pups and they go to hunting homes at that age. yes, there have in the past and in some programs still are dogs that are put to sleep. that tends to be rare however and is usually done only for gross genetic issues that would not make the dog suitable for any type of home. the biggest reason for that is usually agressivness which we veiw as a genetic fault and has largle been already eliminated.
I'm still curious as to how you came to the conclusion that black pugs don't have tear ducts. All pugs have tear ducts including black pugs. If tear ducts are not working properly, its either a nerve problem or a blocked tear duct.
there are a lot of generalizations, i have already said ad nausium that there are good show lines and there are not any absolutes when it comes to people. yes, there are bad folks in the performance world as well. there are great show dogs (even in my opinion) and bad performance dogs. this sort of subject can only be discussed in general, there are always exceptions when it comes to people. the science though, is not a generalization. I still maintain that if the traits that you specificly breed for, those that are your highest priority, are not directly associated with overall health, then your line vitality and general health will erode. you are lucky that your black pug has tearducts. were i a serious breeder of pugs, i would attempt to fix the breed sot hat it was more functional in a general sense. smaller head, smaller or less protruding eye's, an even bite, ect.