I find the show very informing. I am expecting my first pup of my own after Jan. 11th and need to see various behaviors of dogs, so I will not be totally oblivious with how to handle them. I think he deals with the common mistake of people humanizing their dogs and letting them have too big of boundaries enough to let them walk over them. I was not surprised to see so many owners cry and fear correcting their dogs, it's like they didnt want to hurt their feelings. I believe Cesar deals with the humans in order for them to be able to control their dogs and become a pack leader as he says. This show had made me ready (not 100%) for my new puppy.
Gunny and Rescuepup is good to see some one else here with similar opinions of Cesar. Until I saw this post I have never heard of anyone with a lick of sense about dogs agree with his training style. I have had danes for 10 years and have always used positive training. I would never consider raising a hand to them, popping a collar, or rolling them (physically I couldn't, but I still wouldn't). There are much better ways to show you are a leader. I wish all of you that think you need to use force to control you dogs could see the way a purely positive trained dog acts around their owner. They never have to worry about getting hit or jerked for doing the wrong thing. They just look at you with love and respect because they know you will always be there for them and never do anything bad to them. Read some books by Patricia McConnell and other who have actually spent their lives studding dog behavior, not a tv personality with not education.
i have read books by a few of the most famed dog trainers out there, including cesar's. i think all are good, including cesar. i dont think any one of them is better than the other one. i think what most people need to realize is that every breed is diffferent, every dog is different, and every owner is different. with all these differences, there cannot be one way to train them all. you have to take what works for you and your dog, and discard the rest. that may be some of this ones advice and some of that ones advice, and if put together it works, then great. if not, try something else.
cesar makes a lot of sense to me. not everything he does, i would do myself, or think is necessary, but a lot of what he thinks i agree with.
Thanks so much Gunny and Rescuepup for sharing your information about the other trainers books. I am currently taking a dog training course and am very interested in reading what others have to say. Yes while Ceasar is entertaining--why can't we try those techniques at home? Something else I've always wondered is they never say anything about his training, schooling, etc--it's always about spending XX number of years around dogs. Thanks so much for sharing the author names of Terri Arnold and Patricia. I"m ordering Terri's book today. While I find the show with Ceasar entertaining I"m glad to see I"m not as whacked as some dog owners. I have to agree NUnu looked like a mini Taz devil. Did anyone see the woman who dyed her maltese PINK and called him kisses and EVERYTHING was pink! GEES!!! Again--thanks for sharing your information about the authors!! Great help to me!
People have implied that the warnings on Cesar's show about not trying oneself the methods he shows with dangerous dogs is some sort of admission that his methods are unsafe. Of course it's unsafe. He's dealing with agressive, dangerous mentally screwed up vicious dogs that were let down by their people. The warnings are meant to tell us is that you had better get professional help if you don't know what you're doing or feel confident about it so you don't get your face bit off. Common sense to me. Also - in this litigious climate and time we live in, there has to be warnings about everything all the time to protect us all from liability. I am sure his lawyers and his liability insurance company insist on those warnings as a condition of him being able to buy insurance for his business. That doesn't indicate that his philosophy or methods are "dangerous." What's dangerous is people letting their dogs get that out of control. I'm open to other methods and philosophy about this, but Cesar's methods are effective and I think very humane. His success, of course, will invite criticism and some detractors, and maybe even some who will lie about him. I think he's serving a tremendous purpose. I agree with the person who said much of it is common sense. The problem is that so many people have no common sense. I saw a woman on his show once who made big pans of turkey burgers for her picky dog at night but didn't feed her kids home cooked food.
"People have implied that the warnings on Cesar's show about not trying oneself the methods he shows with dangerous dogs is some sort of admission that his methods are unsafe. Of course it's unsafe. He's dealing with agressive, dangerous mentally screwed up vicious dogs that were let down by their people. The warnings are meant to tell us is that you had better get professional help if you don't know what you're doing or feel confident about it so you don't get your face bit off."
Show me Ceasars credintials as a animal behaviorist, or dog pshychologist. the only thing that makes Ceasar a professional is that he gets paid.
The one thing I see about the Ceasar fans. Is most of them have a very limited knowledge on animal learning theory.
Case in point, Ceasar and the little Chi, He stopped the dog from growling and snapping and barking. But you can still th edog is highly stressed. now one versed in dog learning understands that force, or correction no matter how mild. does not create behaviro but erases it. also that correction does not create positive association but negative association. So ceasar has thus stopped the behavior, but the dog is still feeling the same way inside.
it's like shocking a crazy person for hurting themselves. they may stop hurting themselves, but they are still crazy. and it is onl;y a matter of time before new, worse behaviors show up.
***Edited By: gunny on 12/31/2006 3:30:38 PM*** Reason: s
The thing I don't like most about him is his "rehabilitation center". The dogs always look so bored in there just laying around... he doesn't consider his dogs family they are just animals to him. Which is fine I guess... but whats the point in having them?
I think it's unfortunate that so many people admire him, simply because he is on tv and he has name recognition. Personally, I much prefer the following trainers, if anyone would care to actually buy their books or attend any of their seminars:
Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson (located in NY) Pat Miller (located in MD) Patricia McConnell
I like him alot as i said before but i don't believe they send a trainer to work with them first. i watched his show last night and they showed two bulldogs that wouldn't get along. well when he was talking to the owners the dogs went at it. now if a trainer was in there he didn't do a very good goob at all.
“Show me Ceasars credintials as a animal behaviorist, or dog pshychologist. the only thing that makes Ceasar a professional is that he gets paid. “
Yes – he gets paid and a lot of money at that. I do think that people paying him does make him an expert. No one would pay him if he wasn’t any good. Do you really think they’re that complicated intellectually? I think so much of disagreement between people in this is that folks like me love animals, but don’t liken the intelligence and psychological complexity of animals to that of people.
”The one thing I see about the Ceasar fans. Is most of them have a very limited knowledge on animal learning theory. “
Again – an example of how difficult it is for so many to debate any subject for the benefit of us all in learning more without being pompous and condescending. Do you have a PhD in “Dog Psychology?” You assume that anyone else who looks at something differently than you is stupid. If you used your knowledge to make an effective point, maybe you could change someone’s mind or their way of looking at something. Instead, you insult the intelligence of others, which only reinforces their prior opinion. How can anyone be an expert at “Dog Psychology” if they can’t even figure out people psychology that well? I admit that I haven’t read multiple, deep books on animal behavior theory, but I don’t think I have to in order to be a good and loving pet owner. I read things on the subject but I’m not about to go to seminars unless I have a troubled pet.
”…correction does not create positive association but negative association. So ceasar has thus stopped the behavior, but the dog is still feeling the same way inside. it's like shocking a crazy person for hurting themselves. they may stop hurting themselves, but they are still crazy. and it is onl;y a matter of time before new, worse behaviors show up.”
You are a “positive reinforcement only” advocate and that’s a very valid position worthy of respect and great consideration. However, it’s not the only theory worthy of exploring as valid. I don’t think that the correction used by Cesar works the way you present. Treatments for mental illnesses is an area in my realm of expertise from a lifetime of helping to care for a mentally ill family member. Before you pop-off about how electroshock therapy works, I suggest you do some reading. You can’t make an analogy between Cesar Millan yanking a dog’s collar to shock therapy in the chemically unbalanced brain of a human. There’s a big difference between the cause of a misbehaving, healthy dog and the symptoms in a human caused by a chemically unbalanced brain.
“I think it's unfortunate that so many people admire him, simply because he is on tv and he has name recognition. “
How in the world do you come to the conclusion that people who admire him do so only because he’s on TV? There we go with the condescending attitude again.
One criticism on the board is that Cesar doesn’t consider the dogs as family members, and that there is no use in having dogs in that case. I guess I’m guilty of the same thing. I love animals and they have always made my life much richer and happier because I enjoy them. But make no mistake about it; they’re pets. I lost a beloved pet and a year later, I lost my much more beloved father to cancer. Believe me – there’s no comparison between the two. I would snap the pet’s neck with my bare hands myself if it would have saved my father’s life, so you can now all go nuts with that comment. If you consider a pet the same to you as a human family member in value, you have problems. God did not create dogs and cats in his image. He created them for us to enjoy and appreciate.
They guy has famous supporters and detractors. For every journalist and expert who criticizes him, you can find just as many others who support him. I think it useful to maybe read several of them for different perspectives. My thought is to use some positive reinforcement and some of Cesar’s methods too.
"How in the world do you come to the conclusion that people who admire him do so only because he’s on TV?"
Quite simple-how many times have you seen any other trainer's name mentioned on here, asking what people think of their methods? I think that the majority of people wouldn't even be able to come up with another trainer's name. Have you seen anyone ask about Sarah Wilson's qualifications? Or Pat Miller? No-you haven't.
The only reason so many people talk about him is because he is on tv! Unfortunately, this is not a society where people read books. It is all media driven.
(Before some people get offended, I'm obviously not talking about everybody. There are a few people on here who are well read and who's opinions I respect. But to be honest, there's not a whole heck of a lot of them! It will just be my little secret who they are!)
You have made so many assumptions about me. That are not true. First, I am not a "purley positive advocate" I very much do use correction, but I do not use violence.
My comment about shocking a crazy person, was not about therapy or electroshock therapy. it was abotu the simple fact that inflicing pain can stop behavior, but does not change additude. just because the dog Ceasar jerked a leash on 100 times, does not mean the dog has a change of heart, they are still mean, or afraid. they have abandon the behavior.
I am sorry you thought I was insulting, but I think your a bit mis guided. I never they were stupid, I just said they did not have much knowledge on dog behavior.
and you think that Ceasar is workking with dogs that are "healthy"....HAHAHA!!!!!
I have seen absolutley horrible trainers get paid. And IMO Ceasar is there leader.
I think you'd be suprised the level I train dogs to, using minimal force and zero violence.
The problem with the Ceasar fan club, they are so convinved he is right. that they do become stupid and unteachable.
Why don't people read. they see the words, they take them in. and then add words and ideas. to create an argument.
Gopmama. lets stay on the realm of Training, and Behavior Mod. You tell me, IN theory why Ceasars methods are useful, and not overdone.
Because I can tell you there is a better way, and I have science and the art of building relationships behind me to prove it.
***Edited By: gunny on 1/1/2007 2:38:29 PM*** Reason: s
“Quite simple-how many times have you seen any other trainer's name mentioned on here, asking what people think of their methods? I think that the majority of people wouldn't even be able to come up with another trainer's name.”
”The only reason so many people talk about him is because he is on tv! Unfortunately, this is not a society where people read books. It is all media driven.”
So, therefore, because Cesar Millan is on TV, his training methods are not worth admiring? By virtue of his being on TV, he must be wrong as opposed to people with Ivy League educations on dog training, if there is such a thing. What I’m saying is that people think his methods are useful because they work. Because he is on TV does not discount his methods and if people are exposed to him because of TV, that isn’t a bad thing. Isn’t it wonderful how many people are better caring for their dogs because of exposure to him and his influence? Isn’t that a good thing that they’re better understanding that dogs need lots of exercise? I’m not around people who don’t read lots of books. I wasn’t aware that most people don’t read anymore.
Gunny: thank you for clarifying your position a bit on correction versus positive reinforcement. I would be very interested in learning your interpretation between what you deem as violence and correction. I would also love to know what you think causes a dog to have a “change of heart” and how you can tell when a dog has such a change of heart as opposed to stopping a behavior because of correction such as the kind Cesar does. I would love to hear about your method of minimal force and zero violence. That’s what this forum is all about. Share your expertise. I would like to see less criticism and more concrete advice on what works. I don’t care about trainers names. I care about happy, well behaved and well trained pets.
“The problem with the Ceasar fan club, they are so convinved he is right. that they do become stupid and unteachable. Why don't people read. they see the words, they take them in. and then add words and ideas. to create an argument. Gopmama. lets stay on the realm of Training, and Behavior Mod. You tell me, IN theory why Ceasars methods are useful, and not overdone”
As for the rest of your post; it doesn’t make sense. I thought I WAS on the topic of behavior modification and training. To answer your question, Cesar’s methods are useful because they work. That’s the theory. It’s not any deeper than that. Dogs respond to it positively. You want to make this a big intellectual debate about “theory” and that’s my whole point. I'm sorry if I sound offensive about this, but I don’t think it’s all that deep and some of you folks make me laugh with your seriousness about "theory." The original thread asked what people thought about Cesar. I don’t think the man is cruel or violent in any way and his example may save a lot of dogs from someday being euthanized. If you think there's a better way, then instead of criticizing, make your way known in detail so the rest of us may benefit.
I'm one of those people who have expressed positive things about the show, but who have never studied animal psychology. Beyond reading a couple of books and raising a few dogs. I think the question isn't so much Is he the best trainer out there, but Is this show good or bad public education. It seems to me the owners on the show do represent some prevalent types of owners in general, that they're in the same sort of ruts that a lot of owners are who end up surrendering their dogs or alienating their kids, or both.
I guess I missed the episodes when he did anything violent, or even mean, that I caught. It's not so much about whose methods work best, it's more about teaching the owners that they need to radically change their stance toward their troubled, dangerous, endangered dogs, who wouldn't be messed up in the first place except for their owners' persistent bad habits and harmful attitudes. It kills me to see those mommy/baby dynamics between the owner and the dog, especially when there's an actual human child in the household who's getting threatened and even bitten, and there's Mommy too messed up and passive to step up and be the one in charge.
I have friends with a Jack Russell who will almost literally fight them for the food on their plates. Maybe they would have done better with a more docile breed, but I think they would have messed that up too. Their daughter has a scar on her forehead that never should have happened, pretty much because my friends want to be sweet to their dog because that's what nice people do. Their daughter is now actually good with dogs, but my friends will never be. Nothing is ever going to get them to consult a trainer -- I've pushed it as far as a friend can. But if they did, even a third-rate trainer would help them into a much better place than they're in now. Cesar is not a crappy trainer I think, and more to the point, his show is riveting television. I think when people in trouble blunder onto a show like The Dog Whisperer, good things can happen, even if there are better trainers out there.
***Edited By: JoanEK on 1/1/2007 8:08:31 PM*** Reason: added