It's already written in detail, read the bok Dog's bite. Or the other end of the leash, or culture clash.
and no you were not on topic, you were on the topic of calling me condesending. and saying how i should shut my mouth about shock therapy.
And if I do shut my mouth about shock therapy. on the grounds i know nothing about it. You must shut your mouth on the topic of dog training.
And if you think this forum goes in depth theory. You should see some competetion threads i particpate in.
You see, I cannot explain in depth. I can explain in theory. Because I practise application. Not cookie cutter training. you see, every dog is different. with it's own set of variables. some dogs need a kinder gentler hand. some dogs need a more bouncy happy type training. some need the handler to move slow, others need the handler to be animated.
So for an agressive dog I would use desensitization, and postive association, how I apply is totally up to the dog.
But I asked the Question first. What makes Ceasar training not abusive. besides your subjection. it obviosuly causes discomfort tot he dog. the dogs fear it. The try to avoid it. what makes Ceasars training effective?
I love Cesar, he's a hottie. His methods also make total sense to me so I enjoy watching his show even though he pretty much does the same thing every time. It's funny that people are so amazed at the difference he can make, don't they watch the show? And how suprised people are when they realize that spoiling their dog isn't a good thing, duh.
I knew someone who adopted a 6 month old pit bull terrier from the San Diego humane society. This person was already an akita owner, so was used to having a dominant and potentially dog aggressive pet, what I would consider to be an 'experienced dog owner'.
As 'Petey' grew older, he became more and more aggressive not just toward dogs, but toward anyone and everyone who was not family. His dog aggression got to be so severe that if the owner took Petey for a walk, (which was pretty much required, as they did not have a fenced yard and lived in an apartment) the dog would get almost uncontrollably agitated. He'd get so frustrated he actually bit the owner out of displaced aggression, and the owner's wife as well. He was always immediately regretful, as though he didn't even realize he'd gotten so excited, but it was clear that Petey was getting out of control
Petey's owner sought help from numerous certified behaviorists and trainers (and there's a boatload of them in that area, believe me). They tried desentitization training, positive reinforcement, reward marking, etc... NOTHING worked. Finally it got to the point where they were to the point where euthanization was going to be necessary. No rescue would take an APBT that was a kwown and unpredictiable biter.
Cesar Milan was their last hope, and his training methods helped Petey's owner learn to handle and refocus his aggression. THey still have Petey to this day, thanks to Cesar.
I think it is important to remember most of the dogs that Cesar works with are not puppies being trained correctly (as you've done with danes and you've done with malinois) from day one. They are older dogs, that in most cases have been given positive reinforcement and rewards all of their lives... often for the wrong thing and at the wrong time. I'd say 75% of all the episodes involve people who have no rules or boundaries whatsoeever on their dogs, where this 8 lb dog has absolute and utter control of their lives. Most of these episodes involve him helping the dog owner to realize that there's more to being a dog owner than babying your pet eveyr waking instance.
I think he's a complete and total wacko idiot!!! Half the things he does any other person would get turned in for animal abuse if they did it. He advocates hanging a dog by the collar until it is almost unconsious to establish dominance. See, most of his "methods" are very cruel. I beleive positive reinforcement training gets much more done than fear training. I hate him, and think he is totally backwards in his training. There are only a very few things I agree with him on such as pack leader, but I don't beleive in the way he trains. I am glad I am graduating next month. I won't train the way he does. It'll be nothing painful to the dog ever. Won't even allow shock collars.
Response to Gunny, who wrote as follows: ďBut I asked the Question first. What makes Ceasar training not abusive. besides your subjection. it obviosuly causes discomfort tot he dog. the dogs fear it. The try to avoid it. what makes Ceasars training effective? So please do not avoid the question againĒ
Another charmingly worded post for you, Gunny! You are asking me to say why his training isnít abusive? Well Ė I donít think a little jerk on the dogís collar is abusive. He never hurts the dog. He never hits the dog or uses unnecessary force. If a dog is going nuts trying to eat somebody or another dog, he simulates what the leader of a dog pack would do in the wild and places it on itís side until it calms down. If you find that abusive, I disagree. Cesar uses behavior that dogs use themselves in the wild to teach them how to behave. The dog who is the calmest is fed first, to teach them to be calm at mealtime. I donít find that cruel. If he wants a dog to get off the couch, he moves the dog off the couch while he repeats the command. Not cruel. The dogs are exercised several hours a day off leash in a canyon, fed well, played with and loved up. I donít find that cruel. They look happy to me. I donít agree with your characterization of how the dogs feel. They appear to me to love the guy. You say that the dogs fear ďit,Ē but Iím not sure what you mean by ďit.Ē Insofar as what makes Cesarís training effective Ė well Ė I guess one could make a cause and effect argument that it is his way of being pack leader and training dogs to listen to him based on that role as pack leader is what works. Ultimately, I donít know exactly, for sure, why Cesar is effective. I can see that what he does works and it makes perfect sense to me.
To respond to the more personal part of your post, I maintain that I was on topic while I also pointed out that any valid points you make are overshadowed by your condescending attitude and verbal attacks toward anyone of a different opinion. I have tried greatly to resist being rude to you, which is one heck of a temptation. Itís getting much harder, I must say. I never told you to ďshut your mouth,Ē although I did rather firmly tell you that before you compare human psychiatric conditions to dog behavior, you really should know more, specifically regarding the analogy you brought up regarding electroshock therapy in humans. Talk about off topic. Half of what you write is incoherent. Maybe you do know something about dog training and maybe you are good with dogs, but until you learn how to coherently talk to people about it without being obnoxious, weíll never know. I came here because I do want to learn more about dog training in a fun way in my spare time. Most dog owners are not interested in reading big hardbacks on dog training by these gurus on dogs whose names you keep using. Most just want to talk to other owners about problems and ideas. I never pretended to know it all, but I do have a right to my opinion that Cesar Millan, as I have seen him in episodes of his show and from the explanation of his training as detailed in his book, is not cruel to animals at all. You are entitled to think he is cruel if you so choose and thatís fine with me. If my opinion of the guy is so offensive to you, thatís not my problem. I think you need your own collar jerked once in a while to teach you how to converse politely with people with whom you donít agree. Iíll now disengage from you because continuing this will never get us anywhere.
I Don't think his method is abusive at all. If it was I think that at the end of the segment the dog would be fearing him and probably whine moan and run away from him. But I have seen in many cases the dog loving on him like he was their owner.
collar jerks can injure a dog's throat permanently, and in smaller dogs can cause collapsing trachea. It's stupid to use collar jerks and pops. Dogs do sometimes fawn upon the hand that abuses them, out of fear!!! I've seen it many times. Cesar is an animal abuser, and the name "dog whisperer" does not fit him. The original "The Horse Whisperer" would never have done anything to cause the slightest pain or discomfort to the horse. He causes pain to the dogs he works with, and doesn't really cure the behavior. Who's to say that behavior won't pop up unexpectedly with someone else, even worse?
Positive Reinforcement with corrections is the way to go. All my dogs love me. And I don't think any dog I've ever had would allow that monster to "train" them the way he does, and alot of the things he does, I would be sueing him if he even tried any of them on ANY of my dogs. The dog learns faster with positive reinforcement as well.
Actually I've never heard of a collar jerk causing a collapsed trachea or damage. What causes the damage is constant and prolonged pressure against the throat, like dogs that walk on a choke chain and literally haul the owner along, never allowing the owner to ease the pressure of the collar ont he throat.
Popping the collar/choke chain is correct use of the collar/leash technique and is how I was instructed to correct my dog when walking him by my obedience instructor. My mother took Ramoth the akita to a professional dog training school in Illinois, its also how they told her to correct Ramoth when she pulls.
Are you telling me you NEVER pop the leash when your dog is on it? How on earth do you stop a dog from pulling when it immediately lunges to the end of the line? Use a harness? Stop walking all together? THe dog is still pulling on its collar at the end of the line if you stop, right?
Regarding the horse whisperer, um... Bridles and Bits are as comfortable as they can be for horses but I guarantee you they cause a hell of a lot more discomfort to a horse than a collar jerk/pop does to a dog. So while he may not use a whip to train a horse, the end result is the horse is still the same, is it not?
And again, he is RETRAINING problem dogs, not training puppies in the right way from day one, as you do with your dogs, doxielovers.
***Edited By: Minniyar on 1/3/2007 1:17:17 PM*** Reason: add
yes I do use a harness for stopping pulling, and it works. I have done my share of helping dogs that other people have messed up. I am still working with two of them. one is my black dachshund, Honey, and the other is my dachshund mix, Little Girl. I have taken in rescues the entire time I've been on my own and helped them,(one was aggressive with anybody he saw-found out he was scared of people because he'd been hit as a puppy) and when I get moved I will start that up again.
One difference with the horse whisperer is that he basically makes friends with the horse and it doesn't fight the bit. I know that works too, because I've seen my mother do that when she had her big horses. They never fought the bridle or saddle. (sometimes I think she's seen him-but she's grown up with horses)
Anyway my view is still he is an animal abuser who I don't think has any right to be in training
I think Cesar Millan got tagged "dog whisperer" partly because of his naturally fluid body movements and the way he communicates with the dogs by way of body language. Movement analysts are fascinated by Millan's way of moving, with or away from dogs.
Here's the original Malcolm Gladwell article that ran in New Yorker about Millan. I appreciated the details about that one episode involving the mother who continually let her chihuahua bite her son.
No large breed owner or dog trainer I've ever heard of will allow use of a harness to walk a dog, because it doesn't stop the dog from pulling. In fact, it encourages pulling, because there is no correction involved. Additionally, no dog training class I've ever heard of allows harnesses for training purposes. I'm sorry but if you think Cesar is cruel because he uses uses leash jerk/corrections....
You must think Im horribly abusive for the same reasons, is all I can think of.
He advocates hanging a dog by the collar until it is almost unconsious to establish dominance.
i have never seen or read anywhere where he advocates doing that. however there is another trainer out there that does in fact tell people who have extreely doinant aggressive dogs to do this with the. the nae of that trainer is ed frawley, and i started a thread about hi a few weeks ago.
collar jerks can injure a dog's throat permanently, and in smaller dogs can cause collapsing trachea.
if a choke collar is placed properly on the dog's neck, it doesn't do any har to the dog's throat. proper placeent of a choke collar is up behind the ears of the dog, NOT around it's neck. if a dog is getting injured fro a choke collar, then the person using it has not been instructed in it's proper use.
are you also against prong collars ? because the proper use of the also involves a tug and release.
yes I do use a harness for stopping pulling, and it works.
how eactly does it work ? are you using a plain old harness ? or the ones designed specifically for pullers ? i cannot STAND when people bring their dogs into y work on a harness, ainly i a speaking of the ediu to larger breeds. they have absolutely NO CONTROL with a harness.
And again, he is RETRAINING problem dogs, not training puppies in the right way from day one, as you do with your dogs, doxielovers
i think this is a big part of his training that people are missing. he is working on correcting BAD behavior, not giving obedience lessons to someones new puppy.
You must think Im horribly abusive for the same reasons, is all I can think of.
scout there was when with a rotti, where to the untrained eye the dog seems to relax for a second, and ceasar claims victory. but if you watch the dog is not concious, for a few moments. then when it wakes it's breathing excelerates. if you watch it's undeniable the dog passed out.
thanks gunny, i had not seen that episode of his. i dont doubt the dog passed out. like i had said in the other thread about leerburg, i have seen it done in person. the effect was the dog passing out, and then becoming more compliant. i saw this those few times in a work setting, so the desired effect of immediate compliance worked. however, it didn't change the dogs behavior on their future visits. but the discussion that prompted me to start the thread initially was that, that type of correction (?) impressed upon the dog that you hold its life in your hand, hence you impressing upon the dog you ARE the leader, no if and's or but's about it. in the cases mentioned, it had the desired effect and the dog was reconditioned.
my personal feeling is that it IS abusive and i cant think of any GOOD reason to use a correction like that. but then i have never dealt with such an animal as those it has been used on, but i still do not think i ever would use it unless it was that, after all other methods were exhausted, or euthanasia, and even then i would think long and hard about it.
but i still won;t discount all the good cesar does, over a few things i don't agree with. if i did that, most of the trainers i have trained under i would have walked away from, because no one agrees on everything all the time, especially when it comes to training emthods.
The harness works because there's a ring on the front. hook your leash to that and when the dog pulls, it spins the dog around so it's facing you. that removes the reward because it learns when it pulls it doesn't get to go where it's trying to. My 4 year old can now walk any dog we have.
I have also retrained problem dogs, and a few with fear aggression. My honey also has fear aggression. She's come a long way since I got her. I am not saying anything about anyone, as this thread is only about cesar. I think his methods are abusive and that's all I have to say.
***Edited By: doxielover1 on 1/7/2007 12:23:18 PM*** Reason: add
I have started watching Ceasar again. I am not so sure what I think about him. Even if the tapes are edited. I am sure Ceasar does not choose what makes it to the screen. I go back and forth. I just do not want to close my mind off.