Been thinking about this ...those of you that do breed...do you also show your dogs? Those that don't what makes you "not" a byb?
Not asking this to start anything I'm seriously wondering if it's possible to not show and still be a good breeder or if it's part of the entire package. The breeder I got my lhasas from hasn't shown her dogs for a couple years, some of them not at all. Does that means she is a byb? She certainly doesnt think she is. Can you be a good breeder if you purchase high quality stock, do your research, do ALL the testing but not show the dogs? Opinions appreciated.
Well with some breeds there are two types of dogs.
You have show stock and you have working stock.
If you see a show shepherd they are more angulated then a working shepherd.
With labs they are short and stocky for the show ring with nice block heads. Where the hunting labs tend to be a little more leggy and have slightly smaller heads.
Then you have Brittanys and spaniels. The show ones tend to have more feathers then the hunting stock ones.
I hunt with my Brittany's but they are not really show quality or like one of mine she just doesn't like the show stuff. I took her to a confermation class and she got sick three times in a half hour. She is fine out in the field.
I don't do hunt test or trials with mine because the trials are far away and when you have two young kids and seven dogs it is hard to go way for a weekend. Once I find a handler I like we will be doing the hunting test/trials. I do have a puppy right now that I am going to take her to a show in Feb and see how she does. I'm not really holding out any hope for the show ring, but I know she will be a great hunting dog. We will see how she does though.
I think the main thing for a breeder to do is the testing, make sure the dog has a proper bite, and a nice freindly personality. I know others won't agree but:
Though showing is also good you have to remember the showing is also done by someones interpation of the breed so even if you have a great speciman of the breed. A certain judge my just not like that look or that breeding.
Showing especially in the AKC is very pulicatcal which is why a lot of people don't show, or they just don't have the money for a perfetional handler. Which in some breeds that is the only way to win or even get your dog looked at.
Ling you are so right about the judges. I though about breeding and showing minpins and talked to a lady for a long time. she said I should start with red I said I like black and tan alot better I love markings. She said well alot of judges will only judge reds, They will make the reds stand to one side and the others stand to the other side then they will look at the reds and pick a winner with out lookign at the others. I said that cant be legal in show. She said its sad but it is. I decited I didnt want to show dogs not long after that.
Monkeyeatbutt that's total BS. Maybe some judges do that but I've NEVER seen a judge do that in a dog show and I've been to a lot of shows. And most people in my area show black minpins, not red. This isn't to say that some judges wont have a color preference, I've been to a show where the judge appeared to like only yellow labs. But he didn't put the yellow labs to one side and the black choc ones to the other side. But you know in advance who you are showing your dogs to, you don't HAVE to show your dog to that judge again, and you have MANY judges to choose from in your geographic location when showing.
I think that you really won't know if you are going to like showing or not unless you actually give it a try. And you really should, it can be a very enjoyable hobby. I've met some awesome people when showing, a few stinkers, but the majority are dog lovers and owners just like me. The problem is the bad peopel remain in your mind, but the good people kind of blend in.
If you think you even remotely interested in showing, I suggest you get in touch with your local all-breed club and take some conformation classes. As long as your dog doesn't have disqualifying faults and conforms to the breed standard, you never know.
The problem to me with not showing or doing events is that you tend to get 'kennel blindness.'. You're not out there comparing your dogs to other quality dogs, so you don't really notice when minor faults become major ones in your own breeding program.
I do believe that if a breeder is doing good health testing, geting OFAs, CERFs, cardiac and thyroid testing where applicable, are very selective in which dogs they breed, this is a major step above the breeder who breeds their purebred Boxer (with 2 champions in the 6 gen pedigree) to the neighbor's registered boxer for 'awesome puppies'.
***Edited By: Minniyar on 1/2/2007 12:56:01 PM*** Reason: add
>>>>If you see a show shepherd they are more angulated then a working shepherd. >>>
Dallas (Kismet's sight for sore eyes) was a working dog, a champion, and a national specialty winner.
I think with most breeds you should be able to do both working and conformation. I will admit there are some that can't or it would be VERY difficult, at least in AKC. UKC however has made it easier to win with dogs who work and have less coat.
My opinion... if you don't show and/or work your dogs.... you have NO business breeding.
PS: Monkey... I agree with above post... load of crap. If you are interested in breeding/showing go to a show and enter, take handleing classes and learn what you are doing. If you have a decent dog you will be rewarded.
I am a breeder and I do NOT show my dogs....but I am also NOT a back yard breeder contrary to what some here will undobtably say.
My dogs all have health testing, have been evaluated by people who do show, have pedigrees to back them up and are only breed if I have a list of people wanting my specific lines. I have a health guarantee, take pups back for whatever reason for life, sell only on spay/neuter contracts unless a show person wants one for show/breeding then I limit the number of litters they can produce, b4 anyone is allowed to be put on my list for pups they are interviewed, I check their vet references and talk to them at least 3 times prior to breeding. NONE of my dogs are breed if they do not meet the AKC standards for any reason and I require up dates on all pups once a month for the first year including pics and then at least once a year after that.
It takes a LOT of work to be a good breeder, I do not have the ability to travel to shows due to other life obligations and I have been involved with enough show people to know its all about "politics" and I have been ripped of by the top breeder/show person of miniature schnauzers in the United States......its all just a big game and you can get burnt quite easily. Your personal ethics are what determine if your a back yard breeder or not.
What health testing do people do on Mini schnauzers anyway?
And how many dogs you've produced have been shown by other people? To Ch titles? Any? None? Are any pointed?
I don't consider myself rich or even well off, but I can travel an hour or two to the dog shows that are within reach, we make a few overnight trips a year. They kind of are like '2nd honeymoons' for my husband and I, since we rarely get time to travel together :)
***Edited By: Minniyar on 1/2/2007 2:12:04 PM*** Reason: add
Don't know what this whole debate is about, but I just want to add I believe you don't need to show your dogs to be an exceptional breeder. A dog is a dog, but a family member, it's about the love & care you give the breeding dogs, not how many times it's won some stupid medal.
Are there formal awards given in the breeder world for having unusually healthy stock, for lower than expected incidences of whatever problems normally plague the breed? As a consumer, I'd be more impressed with a pedigree of ancestors routinely living more than 13 years, minuscule cancer rates, whatever can be observed and verified. Over and above the hip and elbow and eye clearances. Judges know from carriage and muzzles and toplines, but I'd rather see lifespans and vet bills tracked, and how much Addison's and bad kidneys and hip replacements were in the famiy tree. Nothing is ever certain, and I realize not all health problems are genetic. But I suspect people going to good breeders for pets care more how long the grandsires lived than whether they were champions in the show ring. If a breeder could specialize in health, in a quantifiable way, that would be the attribute literally worth money in the bank to people shopping for their next pet. I'd put temperament second, and conformation a distant third.
can you show a dog with limited papers? Rocky can not be in shows he has a blue eye. Though i have herd that is becoming more accepted. and hes 27 lbs (2 over the limit LOL)
Bullwinkle looks almost exactly like his daddy (his daddy is in shows). He has a good nose ring but does not have a doubble curl tail. Hes only 8 weeks old though so I dont know if that can change or not.
I dont know if I want to show or not. I have herd alot of not so nice things. Like the color thing, that some judges will over look some dogs because they dont like the owner, handler, breeder, etc. it just not seem like a nice place. I used to think dog shosw were fun and all about the dogs but now im not so sure. I may think about it agin depending on how bullwinkle turns out and what the breeder says but i dought i will
I agree completely wit Miss Melodee. Showing does not determine whether you are a good breeder. I have been disgusted and seen some top show breeders keep their dogs stacked up in kennel crates. They are perfectly groomed and win ribbons, but they have no real family life. So how do you classify them? They show, but they are glorified puppy mills with their dogs in cages. Or do they not get qualified as puppy mills because they show? Is is one sided? They can do what they want as long as the exhibit. Beautiful websites and ribbons don't equal a good breeder. Here is a great example and one of my own experiences.
There was one a very famous breeder than always won no matter what she showed. Her lines were some of the best and she was really a foundation breeder in the breed for 30 years. Everyone was in awe of her and her animals. I wanted to meet her as she only lived an hour from me. I was horrified by what I saw. There were cages in every room of her house. The animals she was currently showing rated a cage in the living room. On the walls were literally hundreds of ribbons and pictures of her showing. The babbies were in cages in her bedroom. The others that were no longer showing, but breeding, got moved to the garage. When we walked out there, We couldn't stand it because the fleas were eating us alive. Her ads were such that she had years of experience, hundreds of show wins over 30 years, top producers, all animals in the house, and no kennels. But she showed, so she is a good breeder? Please.
Miss Melodee, your ethics, dedication to your breed, commitment to health testing and protection of your breed do. You can improve the breed without bringing it to a show ring. When you do the research into the pedigrees and breeders you obtain your foundation from, you can get some excellent dogs. You may have an experienced show breeder as your mentor to help you learn. If you have people evaluate your dogs that are also fanciers and even perhaps show breeders, that is not the same as a neighbor. I found that comment unnecessary and rude as you have no idea who she gets to evaluate her dogs.
You can be an excellent breeder and not show. Showing is a sport and not all people enjoy the competition. One has nothing to do with the other. There are people that breed just because they have a purebred dog, without regard to pedigree, quality, health history, health testing, temperament etc. Those are back yard breeders. They have no concern for anything except producing a litter. A hobby breeder is one like Miss Melodee, and I applaud your efforts.
These boards are often more harmful than helpful because it is one place where some express their opnions as fact no matter how ignorant you may be. The ignorant influence more ignorance without regard to knowledge or experience.
I've been breeding for going on 40 years now. Currently, I own/raise Siberian Huskies, Alaskan Huskies/Eurohounds, Canadian Inuit Dogs and Chinooks. They cannot be shown.
Alaskans/Euros are mutts, Simple as that. They are not built to be shown. They have no standard. They have nothing to say they are this or that, except the breeder who produced them. They are typey as anything you will ever come across. They are not like designer breeds, and never will be. And they make some of the absolute WORST pets you can possibly find.
The other dogs are also bred for working purposes. And because I breed for a certain style that compliments my work 100%, and I do not contribute to a standard, they cannot be shown. I doubt you'll find many if any dogs from some of these lines being shown. In fact, some dogs back in my Siberians, you will find hounds introduced, so for a short time, the line was Euro/Alaskan and bred back. It HELPED.
However, I do not disagree with dog shows. It is NOT just some fancy schmancy way of getting breeder's recognized. Far from it actually. Regardless of how breed standards messed up breeds and yadda yadda, they were not inteded to just show off dogs that were appealing. Most of these standards compliment the dog, and to say that show dogs are unhealthy is a bit crass. Responsible show breeders breed amazingly healthy dogs. You'll probably not find too many BYB's/Brokers/Millers at a high profile dog show. They don't wish to put that kind of time and effort into their dogs. They really do not care, or only care about one thing and one thing only. It is so much more than shiny medals and reflections on silver plates. And if you really WATCH a dog show, you'll see that the dogs enjoy it just as much as the handlers and owners and viewers alike. If they did not enjoy it, they would not be out there.
So yes, it is possible for a breeder to breed, not show, and still be considered responsible. Especially considering the working aspect of it, and the fact that some breeds CANNOT be shown, because no kennel club has been submitted a standard by the breed club. (By the way, if you really want to get upset about standards, look at the breed clubs. Kennel clubs don't write all that, if they did, there would be no need for breed clubs.)
<<Most of these standards compliment the dog, and to say that show dogs are unhealthy is a bit crass. Responsible show breeders breed amazingly healthy dogs. -- Huskyhauler >>
Did anyone in this thread say show dogs are unhealthy? I went back and looked, and couldn't find that. I just wanted to know if unusually good health was recognized and rewarded in any formal way among show breeders. If breeders could agree on the criteria, it would be a lot less subjective and trendy than some of the conformation criteria.
I agree completely wit Miss Melodee. Showing does not determine whether you are a good breeder. I have been disgusted and seen some top show breeders keep their dogs stacked up in kennel crates. They are perfectly groomed and win ribbons, but they have no real family life. -dutchelephant
Get Real DUH! As a relative new comer to the show world via my daughter's interest I couldn't let this ignorant post go bye without comment. Where are the dogs to be placed when they are not in the ring? Yes our dogs are crated at the show then they get to go home and jump on the couch, sleep with us or the kids in our beds, etc. THey do have a life and I have the photos to prove it and the friends and relatives that verify we are nuts about our dogs.
As with anyone who breeds dogs, you are going to have some good ones and bad ones in the show world. But, to get to the point of showing dogs with a CH title or on their way to points there has been alot of work to make sure they are healthy to get to that point....
You would be suprised at the number of show people that keep their dogs WHILE AT HOME, not out on the 'tour bus', in stacked crates in a room-- only out a few times a day and right back in their crates.
Of course that is good preperation for the weeks that they will be stuffed in to a moterhome on a 'circuit'.
This topic has been hashed and re-hashed. It is personal opinion.
Being a Champion does not GUARANTEE a healthy dog though, and some people would be very tempted to breed a Champion with health problems because they have so much money invested in a title. Not all problems can be tested for-- or are standard tests. I know of several.
Or how about the lady that had to Euthanize her Champion due to aggression (pretty rare for a boxer), yet continues to use his frozen semen? The list goes on.
If you want a show dog, obviously go to some one who shows, otherwise I don't feel it is necessary. A lot of people think that show dogs are more hyper/nutty/spastic because of such strong line-breeding in show dogs-- and I don't 100% disagree.
I am very disillusioned with AKC showing. I don't think it is fair, due to the point system and professional handlers. Weather people admit it or not, people can basically BUY TITLES with an unlimited bank account and hiring the best handlers to travel all over the country to follow certian judges.
I truly intend to show UKC this year. I like them because they focus on the NATURAL DOG (no chaulking, or dying), and they don't allow handlers.
Most AKC show people think that a UKC show title is worthless, because it is not as 'hard' to obtain. I think it is more fair and family oriented. My mentor has all of her dogs titled UKC by HERSELF (and she has knee problems which make it hard for her to go around the ring)-- but has never been able to title a dog AKC, not even with a handler.
Any opinions? What if some one shows UKC and not AKC?
My understanding (Correct me if I'm wrong) is that the UKC is directed at sporting/hunting types of dogs. I'm not that familar with them.
Say for example I wanted a Brittny Spainel puppy to become a bird dog. The parents were UKC champs and the breeders had done all of the necessary health testing, were not a puppy mill or some byb I wouldnt have a problem with buying a puppy such as this.
Once again it boils down to what is written here, day in and day out about litters, etc.