I recieved a call last nite from our mentor breeder, who stated that someone else got a pup from Lilo and Nani's breeder and when I saw the pics and heard the heartache of what they got, I wanted to cry. We truly got lucky with Lilo. (Unless you looked in Lilo's mouth and saw the wry bite and IF her ears would have stood up , she would be the perfect bull terrier, body type, etc....)
From what I heard, Nani's litter had alot of problems, one of which was from the gentleman I heard from last nite.
He wanted a red female and they had two. He lived in new york and saw the pups when they were little. He picked her up and took her back. Legs are growing horribly! So bad in fact, he may have to put her down....she doesnt move around much and that aint normal for a bull terrier. (Will attach some pics)
Her eyes are green which leads me to believe it is some kind of genetic thing..... She doesnt have the black on the face by the eyes or jaw like Rufus or any red bull terrier has...just red and white. Her ears are not standing...Lilos never stood. Her legs are sooooo short, bulldog like..She has a dreaded underbite as well...not sure if it is wry yet....Nanis are legs long, Nani is actually beautiful.
He has a 3 yr old and has an emotional investment in the dog as well, but he cant believe the flack he is getting from the breeder, who has done the same song and dance they did with us.
He has a 10 mos old brindle male, and he knows about the breed as his brother had them before....
So, the breeders had a white female left and altho she was the runt, he told them of the problems (they said the leg problems are from being crated too much...he told me his dogs are house dogs and are not crated except when necessary and I believe him) and he asked if they could switch and he would just take the white female and they said it wouldnt be good enough, too small, etc.
Come to find out, they are selling the white female for 1000.00 as she is deaf and they dont have time to deal with her..listed in our paper!!!
They are not advising anyone of any problem with the litters. I didnt expect any calls after my run in with them and they did lie about moving, etc, as the person who called me last nite regarding his puppy stated they were at the same address, not moving at all. Course, as with us, for him, they are very hard to reach now.
But, the main jist of the letter here is, they had two breeding females...(they said) Is it possible to have two litters at the same time and just swap two pups? The dam I thought was her mom is on the registration, but after hearing about problems with the litter, I cant actually believe she is the mom!
The man who called me last nite also said he knew the sires breeders very well...the guy has been doing it for 30 yrs and produces awesome puppies...so, he believes the problem lies with the bitch.
Which makes me worry about nanis breeding potential. I mean, as of now, she is perfect, but if problems arise like what Lilo and his pup have, I will spay her without hesitation.
Does anyone know of any kind of gene problems that would cause the green eyes, the lack of black on the fawn bullies,the fact that she doesnt have a black nose at ALL and the leg issues??
Uploading his pics now...wanted to get this out...
Scientists tell us the universe is made of neutrons, protrons and electrons, but they forgot to include MORONS! !
My miniature poodles front foot started to turn just like that a few years ago. She has bad arthritis. We had her to specialist and whatnot, they took a sample of the tissue in her foot and came to the conclusion it was a certain type of arthritis, wish I could remember the exact name. Her body is going against herself. Incurable of course. But we keep going with gluco-chondr, yucca supplements(natural anti-inflam.
Whoever said you can't buy happiness, must have never owned a dog!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes scout, that is Nani's half sister....they used a new sire, but they still have the same dam.
Same breeders, same avoidance, (dont answer their phone anymore) and placing of blame on the owner (just like they did to me)
I talked to the owner of the pup (didn't even ask her name, *I* didn't want to get attached or have a name to go with her....*sniff*) and he bought her as he has a 10 mos old male from a different bloodline and wanted to breed.
The more I read about it, the more I think that Icy is right and that it is dwarfism, from what I read. Also, it is a gene that has to be carried by both sire and dam to be passed to offspring. As they have no rest periods for their female (they are breeding back to back and told the new owners they were breeding as soon as she came into heat after the last litter in Sept '06) I shudder to think of the potential puppies that will have problems.
Out of Lilo's litter, we had...
one with an eye problem (not entropian, but it didnt open all the way and watered all the time....
One with a heart murmur that was sold to an 18 yr old kid for a discount (without any talk about potential problems...what 18 yr old boy is gonna care about the heart problems when he saved 500.00 or so bucks?)
and as far as I know the other two were healthy.
New litter last yr had...
This pup I posted about
One that is deaf (and they advertised in the paper that it was a common condition (basic layperson would intrpret as normal, perhaps??) in bull terriers!! UGH!!!)
another heart murmur.
I was told by breeders they have another female and she isnt on their site.....(co-owned perhaps?) and as I sit there and look at Nani and she is drop dead gorgeous, I wonder if she is from the dam and sire above. I just cant believe she is.
I searched all over and found alot of info on dwarfism that hits GSD and Malamutes (and it expected actually in doxies and bassets....) but NOTHING in bull terriers at all..
which scares the beejesus out of me,actually....they are putting bad stuff in the breeding pool.
Is there a way to test DNA on Nani to see if she fits in the litter I was *TOLD* she came from?
so nani came from lilo's breeder. was nani a replacement pup because lilo had the wry bite ?
i always wondered about breeders who offered up replacement pups if the original pup had a problem, and whether it is in the best interest of the person to go ahead and get another pup from them. i know genetics is often a crap shoot and just because one pup ends up with problems, it doesn't always mean it will happen again. but now seeing how many pups have problems in these litters, it seems more due to bad breeding than the genetic roll of the dice.
i think, but i may be very wrong about this, that AKC's request for DNA profiling parents is to prove that pups come from where it is said they come from. so it would be my guess that you could DNA nani to see if her parents are who they are claimed to be. but only if the parents have been DNA'd. if they haven't then ther wouldnt be anything to match nani to.
now is it only the studs that are DNA'd ? or does AKC require both parents to be DNA'd ? i *think* they only even require it if the dogs produce more than a certain amount of litters a year. which would lead me to think that it is only studs that are routinely DNA'd as one female is limited to how many litters they can have in a years time.
i dont breed so i do not know exactly how it all works. i would think though that nani does carry the genes for these problems also though. just that her makeup was such that none of these problems surfaced or she is still too young yet to know for sure.
you did get nani to breed correct ? i had thought that was something you had mentioned way back when discussing lilo and her bite. if i am wrong i apologize. it will be very interesting to hear from others about whether or not she should be bred, or what you should look for when picking a stud for her.
what a total nightmare for all involved.
and nani is drop dead gorgeous =) i hope she doesnt ever develop any problems.
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
The only thing that is positive in this, is the sire (her father) has excellent bloodlines and comes from a guy who has been breeding them for 30 yrs and knows what he is doing....so, they do have a good sire.
However, the genetic crap shoot comes into play even his excellence in breeding, that he carries the dwarfism gene.
Did Nani get it? I dont know. Does she carry the wry gene? Again, dont know, it could have been Lilos sire that carried that and passed it to Lilo, their mother could not have it at all.
But, I do know that at least her father is 50% of her makeup and his background is excellent.
*IF* we do breed her, I will be following the first litter with great intent...(well, actually I want to know how all pups are doing and if there ARE any problems in any of the pups,ever....as any good breeder would)
There is a vet that specifies in genetics....I plan on a consult with him with as much information as I can get my hands on and testing to see if I would have potential problems.
Scientists tell us the universe is made of neutrons, protrons and electrons, but they forgot to include MORONS! !
AKC females do not have to be DNA'ed as of yet. I know they recently changed the requirement for males. It use to be if they sired more than 3 litters per year. All of my boys are DNA'ed. If you have concrete evidence to the parentage you can request DNA via the AKC. But you have to have facts not just a hunch.
As for breeding. I would make sure she passed all genetic clearances prior to breeding. And have her evaluated by the owner of her sire. Since you already know that there is deafness in the line. I would be BAER testing her prior to breeding, because the only way to tell if a dog is uni laterally hearing, is to test. I would what ever stud dog you choose to breed to BAER tested as well. And I would test every pup in every litter produced. They can be tested as young as 7 weeks old. And most give a discount for doing an entire litter of pups. Even if both parents test clear, it does not prevent them from passing on deafness. Until they locate a genetic marker all we can do as breeders is remove effected pups from the gene pool.
Good luck and I hope everything turns out OK for you and your dog.
He's your friend,your partner,your defender your dog.You are his life,his love,his leader. He will be yours faithful and true to the last beat of his heart.You owe it to him to worthy of such devotion
I am sorry, but as I said before you got Nani, I would not have gotten another dog from that breeder, just too many bad things in his lines. I would never breed her, if she is related to this other pup, then the dam carries the gene to cause this, then your dog could very likely as well, that is a pretty major fault, and something that seriously affects that dog for life.
TM I love your dogs, They are so cute and I become filled with happy every time you post pics.
I am not a breeder, I know barley anything about breeding. So i cant offer you any advice on if you should breed her or not. eather way I wish you luck. If you do breed You have to post tons of pics of everything from fat rollie mommy bellys, to wet sticky pups.
I'm gonna trade this life for fortune and fame I'd even cut my hair and change my name
Could you and the other puppy owners contact the AKC with your concerns (sp). they may require the breeder to provide DNA from all their dogs, or take away their AKC rights, because of selling sick dogs. Who knows, but it may be worth checking out.
Wow Trauma Mamma, so heartbreaking. It looks like her nose is not straight, too? Maybe it is just the pic. Does the coloring maybe come from having a red dominant and recessive, maybe?(RR) She is sooo cute, though! I will have to agree with some of the earlier posts, if she even comes from a line that has had problems, I wouldn't breed her. I know not every line is perfect, but if you can prevent some problems in future generations of the breed... It is the right thing to do. It is so hard to be objective when they are our babies! Our hopes were dashed when Everest grew up to be too tall and long-bodied for a Husky. We had him neutered, and are searching for a new male. Best of luck.
I would just like to say that there are NO perfect dogs. Not even Champions. That is what selective breeding is about. Finding a match to correct faults of the parents. I think people are kind of jumping the gun, you don't even know what is wrong with the other puppy from the litter. Nothing has been diagnosed yet. Problems can also randomly come up with a puppy from a litter, which would not effect litter-mates breeding potential.
Boxers are like cookies you can't have just one :)