This was brought up in a previous thread, which I did not want to high-jack. But I am very curious, am I wrong, or are the majority, of USDA breeders, puppymills (small scale and larg)?
A poster mentioned, in her state, they are required to be licensed if they have 24 or more litters a year. Good Lord, I don't know any show/hobby breeders who have at least 100 puppies a year, at different times, in their home. That's beyond a hobby.
Also, the USDA does not have time to "police" their efforts. From, what I've read, they are mostly following up on complaints to the same puppymills, over and over again. So why would it be a "bonus" to be listed with them? Why would a breeder want their good name "attached"?
Just a question, as I do NOT breed, but have always known it a "red" flag if they are USDA Licensed.
Edit: It was 24 puppies a year, not litters. I would still like your thoughts on this, as I have always been against USDA breeders.
***Edited By: DebsDogs on 6/28/2007 9:49:47 PM*** Reason: Puppies, not Breeders
I guess even after my back & forth with Savannah I'm still leary of USDA kennels. I can't help it. After seeing her point of view, I'll try to not be so quick to judge. I will still research EVERY kennel like crazy though.
Literally EVERY kennel I've come into contact with that is USDA has turned out to be a puppymill with at LEAST 4-5 breeds being bred.
I'm hoping Savannah will find this thread and enlighten us... Since we started the subject on another thread, we didn't really get into it too much.
I think from her point of view she uses the USDA licence as a tool to be kept accountable. They make her do all sorts of paperwork, and inspections also. It ensures that she's doing everything to the letter. Which is definitely not a bad thing. I think legally she had to b/c she sells more than 24 puppies in a years time. 24 sounds like a lot to you and me, but it's really only 3 litters.
If the USDA finds the "Puppy Mills" to be fine, in other words, "pass" the test, then WHY would you be PROUD of such an accomishment?
The USDA approves of CAGES with only inches of room to move around in. The cages the mill dogs are kept in. Yep, they are approved by the USDA.
Also, they do not have enough man-power to "Police" their, already "lax" rules. From what I've read, they continue to go to the same large-scale puppy mills, over and over again. As well as the breeders who have several complaints against them.
A show/hobby breeder, should NOT need the USDA to make sure they have their paperwork in order. Nor make sure everything is on the "up and up". I would expect a reputable breeder to know what they are doing, without the involvment of those who decide puppy mills are okay,
My thinking is, if your state requires you to have the license (which I think would be rare, for a reputable breeder) don't make it sound like you are "honored" to have it. After all, Missouri is full of these proud folks.
Hmm, enlightening deb. As I had said, I know a bit about the whole USDA thing and always attributed it to puppymills. But never knew what the requirements and that were to know if it really made them ethical.
People are like slinky's, not really good for much. But its still fun to push them down the stairs.
What good is the USDA really. If they were doing their jobs , puppymills would become obsolete. If millers were forced to provide clean living conditions, healthy food, vaccinations, vet care, etc, etc, the cost of raising them would outweigh the profit.
If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater, suggest that he wear a tail.
I am not sure if this is true or not and it may just be a Missouri thing but I heard it somewhere. They dont consider your house appropriate whelping quarters and that they arent allowed to be whelped in anything attached to your house (like a garage.) That would count most hobby breeders out. Also 24 puppies for weims isnt that much either as weims have 9 to 13 pups a litter so that could be done with only 2 litters and certainly with 3. The smallest litter I have ever had is 7. When I think of USDA I think lots of dogs. I know thats not always the case but thats just what comes to mind. I am from Missouri and am in the midst of the mills and large scale kennels. Since I am from Missouri I feel like I have to go an extra 10 miles to prove that I'm not a mill because I know people will look even closer. I flaunt tons of pictures, even of my whole property so people can see NO cages or runs anywhere on it. I have a fenced yard but it is huge (a few acres big)and it would be like they were running at large which USDA wouldnt approve of. I have 1 older retired girl, 3 3-4 year old girls, a puppy and Mr. Scamp a beagle, and an IG in a pear tree. I have first hand heard horror stories that would make you all cringe from the puppymill people them selves confess. I am monologing and will shut up now.
Thank you, Dusty. The USDA is nothing but crap, and they approve CRAP. As you've stated, IF they were doing their job, the mills would be SHUT DOWN!!!
I've fostered "Mill" rescues, as many of us have. I had one, who would not leave a tiny little area. He would circle and circle. It was sad. He had an entire house to venture off in, but he was more at home, "doing what he does best". How, utterly, sickening!!
But hey, the MILL was approved by USDA. So it's all good.
good morning all, it was me who was giving out some information on the USDA and I just saw a pm asking me to come over here and help explain. So here's some information... firstly, lets make sure we are talking about STATE department of Agriculture which falls under USDA which is United States Dept Of Ag. Everyone should know the USDA is for regulating our farms, chicken, beef, whatever it is. It's the State Dept of Ag we are specifically speaking of as far as dogs go. I read the thread here and I'm not sure what specifically you want me to answer....Professional breeders, rescue operations that sell pups, ANY organization that is going to be a "pet dealer" is required by law to be lisenced with the DA (dept of Ag)Usually states have a number of pups/animals that are sold per year. In my state if you sell more then 24 pups in a calendar year you must be lisenced. They inspect, they regulate, they search paper work. Some like them, those that have nothing to hide and make their operations open, do it legitimately etc... welcome the visits and inspections. Those that hide hate them. The problem is puppy mills and back yard breeders can get away with NOT being lisenced because they have no records of puppy sales. Hence they do not show how many pups they sell in a year and nobody knows. I know that in my state my rep has told me about the mills here they have now closed because they caught them.
Still drinking coffee, not sure what else to type so ask questions LOL
So are you licensed under your specific state, or the United States Dept. of Agriculture? I plan on being licensed in my state. The requirement is having 4 or more unaltered animals used for breeding purposes.
I realize that the state DA's fall under the USDA, but I was under the impression that an actual USDA licensed kennel was different and more of a 'commercial breeder'. Meaning having tons of dogs and breeding for the sole purpose to sell puppies.
I don't know if I actually asked a question in there, but at least you know what I know now, and you can fill in the blanks.
LOL I'm not sure what you're asking me if you are asking me? LOLOL... I'm lisenced in my state yes. Cow farms, chicken farms, animal farms all of them are agricultural/commerical businesses and yes, they are USDA.
I am not in PA, the USDA and the State Dept of Ag are different, that is correct. I'm not going to get into an argument over the mills and the regulations, we all know there is a horrible, horrible problem. But that does not mean that legitimate breeders and businesses who are also lisenced and doing things correctly have problems with DA state by state. The big agricultural farms are USDA. My girlfriend works for the FDA and does some of the inspections around here and yeah it's bad. NOT speaking of mills, I'm speaking Agricultural farms, cows and stuff. The wholesale/or being a pet dealer of canine/feline is STATE regulated. The rescue operation about 35 minutes from me who also does a great job is also lisenced with the State and actually has the same Rep as I do.
To those of you that are rescue operations... I really salute you. I could not do that. I can't handle my emotions when it comes to those poor animals. Thank God we have people like you in the world that will do this. I can't tell you how many conversations I have been in, discussing how to go about really shutting down mills and back yard breeders. It just seems it's so impossible, yet we continue to try. Anyway, Thank you for doing what you all do. I sincerely, humbly mean that
***Edited By: savannah on 6/30/2007 6:00:29 AM*** Reason: after thought