I don't really understand what the DNA is going to tell you. Maybe you know something I don't...To my knowledge commercial DNA testing in dogs has very limited scope... I mean it tells you if the pedigree is valid or if your dog has a known genetic disease. Are you just DNA testing to check the pedigree? DNA testing is not going to "find" the genetic problem underlying what's going on here unless you already know what you are looking for. It doesn't sound like that's the situation.
Boy who told you that dna doesn't do anything or help research anything, maybe you should look that up. Dna is the answer to your animals everything, health, color, personality, everything and there are ways to look up everything.
I feel so bad for you. That is one of the reasons I would never want to breed. I could not take something like that happening and having to put those babies down. There are som many things that can go wrong even when you have done all you can do and did all you were suppose to do in the start. I am so sorry for your loss, I know you must be devastated.
Um... I don't need to look it up... research is my job, I play with DNA all day... I guess I was not clear...
If someone told Pen the problem is X-Linked I think they don't know what they are talking about. Seriously if a vet told her this she should talk to another vet. The classic definition of X-linked is that the defect passes from MOTHER to SON!!! Anyways, you can't even assume it's genetic! If someone is telling her that they can solve this from a DNA test--like really tell her whether or not to breed her dog again--then they're probably just trying to get her $$$ or make her feel better. To my knowledge current DNA testing on dogs reliably tells you (1) the parentage or (2) if they have a specific disease for which the genetic mutation is known. Even if testing shows that one animal is not from the lineage you expect, that doesn't really say anything. And you can test for every other known disease but that is not going to tell you why this happened.
Honestly Pen if your gut feeling is to just not breed either animal again, listen to your gut, because DNA testing is not going to get you anywhere unless you already know exactly what gene is responsible for this so you can sequence it.
Boxercorps...there are ways of discovering many things using DNA but it's not always realistic... Trying to figure out what gene(s) cause a such a complex defect from scratch can be like finding a needle in a field of ten thousand haystacks. It takes years, if not decades, DNA samples from minimum hundreds of individuals, and a lot more money than is worth spending for a problem that affects three dogs...
***Edited By: illini on 8/11/2007 3:12:05 AM*** Reason: *
oh Pen2...i feel so sorry for your loss. they are not just dogs to us..they are part of our lives too and in one way or the other it will hurt us when something bad happens to any of them. the vet should have seen it..nway we learn from this story. thanks for sharing.
Its funny Alicat, how you just seemed to pop in out of thin air to post on this thread. In a puff of smoke i'm sure. Pens situation was a little different from yours. One in the fact that her pups were seen by a vet , who should have noticed the abnormality, as her kid seemed to be able to do. And two, in the fact that your pup could have been saved. After all, when he needed a butthole, all he had to do was turn to his master and VOILA , there one stood !.........
If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater, suggest that he wear a tail.
I dont know anything about this Ali user but I do know one thing, Pen is one of the most professional breeders I have come into contact with over the years. I would not compare someone that has dogs and puts them together (regardless of who they are) to Pen. She has a wealth of knowledge, has been doing this for years and sadly, just as in all our lives, bad things happen to good people no matter how hard we try.
Pen, sorry for the loss of those pups and thanks for the warning to others who have no clue what they face when they undertake breeding,
illini, perhaps, in the upset over this situation Pen got some of the wording from the vet wrong? Genetics can be very confusing, as can the terminology.
Since Pan has had two healthy liters from this bitch, the vet might be looking for recessive genetic abnormalities in the "X" chromosome.
He might want to rule out any possibility that there is something carried through the "X", therefor passed down to any females from this girl. With the females being "XX" and the healthy male an "XY", I would think this is the case.
IMO, I'd think that a study from the sire's DNA would also be necessary to determine if it was one or the other OR something recessive that both carried and became dominant when their genetic material combined. I am not expert, far from it, but just thinking "out loud" here.
Alicat, I Am sorry for the loss of your pup. I am ALWAYS sorry when someone losses a living creature. I have also never said a word about what you do or don't breed, nor your deceptive comments on those who purposely touted mixed breeds while you, yourself were doing the same. Talk about hypocritical.
Difference here (Pen's situation and yours) is that the pup you had PTS was healthy in all other respects (if I recall correctly). There were no other issues (such as spinal deformities) and the vet could have successfully corrected the problem surgically. I might be wrong in this, if so, please correct me.
I don't recall you mentioning genetic testing to determine if this was an abnormality carried by your sire or dame, to avoid this happening again from breeding the same pair, either to one another or to others.
I guess my question for you (Ali) is the same it has been since day 1, do you sex your pups when they are whelped? In doing so, one generally lifts the tail to see if the pup has a vagina or testicles.
Both are generally located UNDER the anus, last time I checked. I just don't understand how it wasn't evident from the time that pup took it's first breath that something critical was simply NOT there. Sorry and no, I did NOT participate in any of the earlier discussions with you on this subject to the best of my shaky memory.
My liter from Angel classified me as a BYB, truth in lending here (ok, so it was the bedroom, but you get the picture). Even as a BYB, both my adult daughter and I were there as Angel whelped. My daughter came from out of town to be with Angel while I was at work, for 2 weeks before she was due to whelp. My vet was on standby, in the event of a problem.
Angel delivered 11 pups in a VERY short span of time, 2 hours. She had not only a fast delivery of all pups, but it was (thankfully) uncomplicated.
We went through an enormous stack of warm towels that night~ As soon as Angel finished cleaning a pup, I took it and checked it from stem to stern, marked it's birth order with fingernail polish on one toe, then I handed it off to my daughter who had more warm towels. She recorded the birth information; birth order, sex, nail that had been marked and weight.
Once the pup had been checked and information recorded, we put it to the teat to nurse, marking sure all were nursing properly. Angel was a wonderful mom and cleaned and stimulated each and every pup.
The vet was at our home about 5 hours after Angel whelped. Since she picked the middle of the night to do this, we had to wait until 7 the next morning for the medical check-up.
We DID lose one pup at 24 hours from hypothermia. We had been up for over 30 hours and somehow overlapped 1 hour of sleep, leaving the pups and mom unattended for that hour. The pup wiggled away from mom and the liter. She was fragile, due to maconium. I STILL haven't forgiven myself for the loss of that pup three and a half years ago. I COULD have kept her alive and healthy. Her loss was entirely my fault.
In short, Alicat, I, as a self confessed BYB (ok, 1 liter, but still proper classification for me), was very much aware of the one pup with problems. My bitch and pups were vet checked at home before they were 6 hours old.
I refused to expose them to anything in the outside world until they had received their 1st set of shots, at home. Our vet was here when the pups were 6 hours, 1 week, 10 days, 3 weeks and weekly until the 1st wormings and shots had been administered. After that, we went to the vet.
Did it cost me to do things this way? You bet, but my girl and these pups were MY responsibility and I simply had to give them the best start in life as I possibly could. Even as a BYB I recognized and accepted that fact without hesitation.
As a professional breeder, why would you be held to lesser standards? Your career, your family's livelihood is based on the wellbeing of your "breeding stock" as well as any and all pups you whelp. Doesn't it make sense that everything that CAN be done SHOULD be done to insure the continued health of all? That would include genetic testing from parents who produce an unsound pup.
Also have to wonder Alicat, why you asked to be allowed back on the forum if you find it so meaningless?
OK, done now..sorry for being (once again) so long winded everyone!
***Edited By: pyrmom on 8/11/2007 7:53:54 AM*** Reason: *
"Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful".
Pen, I am so sorry that your thread has been hijacked by those who turn the spot light upon themselves. I can only imagine the pain you feel right now. But please know you are in my thoughts and prayers.
"My dog is worried about the economy because Alpo is up to 99 cents a can. That's almost $7.00 in dog money."
Well, once again, I started to post a paragraph and ended up with an unbridged dictionary! lol.
I can say that I AM grateful that Beau moved up our breeding schedule by a couple of years, though I was NOT overjoyed at the time. I have one of my girl's female "pups", so like her in looks though NOT in personality (Arwen is my "wild child"). A blessing after the loss of Angel as a result of the hurricanes.
Before those of you who are new ask, Angel was 2, but Beau was only 10 months old. So much for the breeder's assurances that I would have no worries until he was at LEAST a year old. Yes, they were a planned breeding pair, yes, they have well over 120 CH in 5 generations with excellent OFA, DNA, etc..and yes I had PLANNED on all the testing before the PLANNED breeding, but Beau was "precoscious". SO BYB is totally earned in my case.
janders894, are you referring to me??
***Edited By: pyrmom on 8/11/2007 9:03:41 AM*** Reason: *
"Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful".
Nice post Pyr! I would think checking the sex would also make at you look for a butt hole.??
Calling you a back yard breeder is far from the real BYB. You planned on breeding this pair and you also had them tested. It was one mistake litter only because of the age. You took on the responsibility that goes with breeding.
IMO you are letting the real BYB's off the hook by calling yourself one.
Pen, I'm also sorry for your lose and happy to hear you plan on doing the correct thing. No one would want to go though this again.