LOL, as a southerner myself, I'm right there with you on the whole manners thing as are my children and 10 grandchildren.
Wiley, I had only prelim testing, due to age. While I didn't repeat breeding (took too heavy a toll on my girl, so can you say spay/neuter?) I'll accept the BYB title. No excuse, no exceptions. I've been called a lot worse in the past. I'm just thankful that all 10 surviving pups are happy, healthy, sound and in wonderful loving homes at 3 1/2 years of age.
In Pen's case, it just seems to me that she did and is doing all that she could and can. Both for the pups she lost and to prevent it from happening again in the future.
I would question why the vet didn't pick up on the more serious issues and might consider finding another though.
***Edited By: pyrmom on 8/11/2007 9:40:35 AM*** Reason: *
"Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful".
As hard as it is to believe and understand, MANY things are not detectible at a very early age, even the age the staff was diagnosed. Pups have to develop. You can see something that looks "off" but to understand just what it is, to get a diagnosis on what has happened or what it is, sincerely folks, that can take another 2/3 weeks of development. I have walked in these shoes and I am blessed to be able to say I sincerely work with some of the most gifted vets in our country.
Pen, so very sorry to hear about your tragic loss. Thank you for sharing your story in an honest, adult manner. Please keep us up to date with the results.
It shouldn't surprise anyone that alicat1 hasn't been around much. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/pope1982/Goodies/dramallama2.jpg She's been very busy selling all the boxers, "teacup/micromini" yorkshire terriers, puggles, and now her prize pugs that she can pump out for as much as she can get.... It also shouldn't surprise anyone that she was looking for sympathy, but instead got a fight, because there is a major difference in the way Pen and alicat1 approached the situation, mistake and the board.
Perhaps I should make myself a little more clear, just to avoid any blame at all being put on my vets. I take full resposibility for this, it was my fault, not theirs, for not knowing about these abnormalities. When I sexed the dogs, everything APPEARED to be in place. The little girl who turned out not to have a functioning anus, did in fact look like she had one.All of the routing of the feces and urine was different in all 3 BUT at birth they looked normal, to me. My son, made the comment about the smallest girls vagina, looking 'different', and I thought so too, but, put it down to a totally different sire, totally different build on the pups, and actually laughed at him. I wish to God that I had listened to him and immediately taken them to the vet to be inspected, but I did'nt. They were strong, vigorous and growing normally. They were also peeing and pooping, obviously not from the right place, but had I stopped to closely watch one eliminate, I would have seen it. I did not. I did not think there was one damn thing wrong with these dogs.I do a lot of my own work, worming etc., so to blame my vet is not realistic. My vet looks at my dogs at my request, and trusts me to know if there's something she should look at. When they were taken in for the staph test, that was my chance to ask them about anything, IF I had realized there was something wrong. All 5 vets were there when I brought them in, and no, not one picked them up and looked at their rears.It did not become apparent until a fissure opened between the anus and vagina on 2 of them, that this was real trouble, and all the mess was internal, other than the obvious hole that I finally found. Illini, I'm not going to get into an argument with you on genetics. I know exactly what I'm doing and why.I will tell you that one of the reasons I'm having it done is because the sire's breeder is blaming one of my other boys as fathering these puppies. She says that one of my bitches son's probably got to her.She also is doing DNA testing. I know this is absolute nonsense, and I'm going to prove it.I can explain to you the reasons why we think it's x-linked, but I need a few more cups of coffee first.Pyr pretty well hit the nail on the head. There are many reasons to do genetic testing Illini, and if you're in that field you must not be in the dog breeding world, because we do a lot of it.Personally, I think this resulted from a very bad pairing. This particular defect is so rare that no breeder I've talked to thus far has experienced it, except the one, and as I told you it was back in the 80's.People have mentioned chemical factors. My bitch was never treated with anything, whatsoever before or during her pregnancy that could have caused this.
Pen, thanks for clearing up the question on the vet's not catching the problem. Understandable the way you've explained. I can also see how, with the pups eliminating on a regular basis and everything APPEARING normal at the outset, it would have been missed.
I can see that the DNA will absolutely prove to the stud's owner that her dog was the sire.
On the DNA, as I said, I'm no geneticist nor do I know all of the ins and outs, just using the wee bit of understanding I have been able to garner as the project administrator for our family's "Y" surname project. Perhaps it's a case of my little knowledge being a dangerous thing, in leading me to believe I have the basics down when I don't.
It is my understanding that testing can be done along the "X" mtDNA/maternal or "Y" paternal genetics. I would also guess there are specific loci/areas on the chromosome, where various abnormalities appear. In some genetic disorders, I would think that both parents would have to carry the recessive gene to produce offspring with the specific defect. I guess that may be an over simplistic way to explain what I'm trying to get it, but it's the best I can do.
"Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful".
ruffian, unfortunately the dog breeding world can be very cut throat. The breeder is insisting her dog could not possibly have anything to do with this, when in fact he certainly could. I'm not trying to put the blame on her either. I just want some answers, if they're out there, as to why this tragedy happened,and to try to avoid the same thing ever happening again, even though in my heart I know that some things just spring out of nowhere, no matter what testing you do. That's why I posted this, to discourage people from thinking you can throw 2 dogs together and come up with a healthy litter.
Pen, I just want to say that I am very sorry for your loss. I know that you did what you could in order to have healty puppies, and I am really sorry that the sire's owner is blaming you. There is no fault or blame in this situation. Things happen - it is God's will. Again, please accept my sympathy.
im sorry to hear about your puppies pen.but i also know wat you mean about how hard it is to do something like that to a pup so young. my dogs first litter which was 3 the first lil boy was born rear first and got his head stuck in the birth canal she was taken to the vet and it took them almost 30 mins to get him out.well as u prolly guessed he was dead.then that left 2 lil gurls and i was also checking them out one day and didn't see a butt hole on one took here to the vet and he examined her and said her rectum was inside he vagina..she died at 8 wks of age.
I feel it's time to explain what I'm doing now, as I've had a few PM's on my genetic testing. This is the reply for everyone who wants to know, and this is my last word on the subject. I'm by no means an expert in the field of genetics, and I've never once played with DNA, but I do know a few facts that even the most slack-jawed researcher should know. Firstly, an animal's sex is determined by the sex chromosomes (X and Y) passed on by its parents (males have XY and females have XX). When two dogs mate, they pass ONE of their two sex chromosomes on to their offspring. Since females are characterized as having two X chromosomes (XX), the mother always passes on an X. Therefore, it is the father's contribution that really determines the sex. If he passes his X, the offspring will be female and if he passes his Y, a male will result. In regards to X-linked genetic disorders, as the term blatantly suggests, the genetic defect is carried on the X chromosome. If a female carries the bad gene on one of her X chromosomes, there is a 50% chance that her offspring will get that bad X and in turn they will show the genetic defect (If she passes her "good" X, the disorder will not show up). If a male is a carrier of the bad X, there is also a 50% chance that his offspring will get the bad gene. If he passes his Y chromosome, resulting in a male, the genetic defect will not appear. On the other hand, if he passes his X chromosome, the resulting female will (100% of the time) show the defect. If you're still with me, you should be able to make the connection and understand my situation. I'll explain it again just in case... I bred a male and a female and ALL the female pups were born with a genetic defect. The male pup was perfectly fine. The fact that ALL of the females show the disorder is why my vet suggested X-linkage. The fact that the male puppy didn't show the defect supports the theory that the defect comes from the father (The father passed his Y chromosome to the male offspring, so no defect appeared; but when he passed on an X and produced females, the defect appeared every time). Seeing as the bitch of this litter has NEVER produced a puppy like this before and all of a sudden had THREE in the same litter, we are suspicious of the father having an X-linked gene responsible for the defect.That's it in a nutshell,and I hope that explains everyone's questions. This whole episode has been extremely difficult for me, and my son who is co-owner of our kennel, and it has been difficult dealing with the hassle from the sire's owner, who insists one of my dogs is the father of these puppies. I hope this explanation satisfies all PM's I have received.
Could it have anything to do with them being hermophridites (ok so i know i spelled that wrong).. like perhaps a parent added in an extra gene (XXY for example instead of just being an XX). Just throwing ideas.
Merico,the puppies were not hermaphrodites.The puppies did not have both female and male genitalia. Serene, if the sire is the carrier for this defect, the surviving male puppy is not a carrier because he received a Y chromosome from the sire, not an X.
I see why you might believe this is X-linked coming from the sire. But consider that the sire only had one X-chromosome. If it was defective, then the sire should have showed the flaw(s) himself. There is essentially no such thing as a male 'carrier' of an X-linked disorder. If males have the bad gene, they are universally affected by it.
You cannot assume that this is X-linked. The likelihood of it being X-linked is very small...about as likely as any other explanation.
I could say more...Regarding recessive and dominant traits...
I see what you are saying. The question I have is out of a litter of six pups. 3 boys and 3 girls. 1 male died by aspirating meconium, 1 male was born dead and 3 girls deformed. Could the male that was born dead also have had some kind of defect that you didn't notice? Could that have been the reason he didn't make it? I just wonder if the 1 pup left could be a carrier. I am just throwing out thoughts. Trying to brainstorm. :) I would also think that the stud used was the cause since her other two litters never had these issues.
Life isn't like a box of chocolates . . it's more like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your rump tomorrow
Illini, I purposely did not go into recessive and dominant traits, because as you know, it would take up another 2 page explanation,in short form. We both know there's a lot more to this than I'm saying,but I wish you could give me some credit for knowing a tiny bit about dog breeding. I disagree with you, and perhaps will continue the debate. Serene, you don't know how much I wish I'd kept both those dead puppies. One of them was very thin,premature, possibly, but fully formed. The other boy who aspirated meconium was fully formed and otherwise perfectly normal - in hind sight I should have taken them both to the vet, but as I said before I had no reason whatsoever to suspect the horrible defects that were to become apparent.We've been brainstorming our brains out here, we've thought of every possible thing, including chemicals, poison, meds, cleaners, hairspray(j/k) you name it. Both my son and I are convinced it has something to do with the sire,and that's a long drawn out explanation, part of which you see above. The truth is we may never know, but we are trying to find out something, anything, to give us some explanation.
Pen - I am so sorry this had to happen. Having to put down an animal - even one who would not survive on their own - is devastating. In high school I worked as a vet tech to see if vet med was right for me, but after only a summer I knew that euthanazia - no matter how right- would just be too hard for me emotionally. I just hope that if my puppies ever require I make that decision I will be able to do so and ease their suffering.
As to the reason behind it. I have to agree with Illina. This can not be an X linked trait. X linked traits ALWAYS show up in males because the males only need one x to carry it, but the female needs two (males are xy, females xx). Since the male is fine, it therefore follows it is not x linked. It does very much sound like the 3 girls could have been cojoined triplets (a fertilized egg that split 1 time, then one of the eggs split again. These eggs didn't separate until late in the gestation thus as the puppies formed parts where missing as there was not space for the parts to form). But I am glad you are doing genetic testing. I am not a breeder and will never breed but would be highly interested to know if there was some type of genetic defect that could cause this.
I don't want to be critical. I am trying to be helpful but you're not listening to me or letting me help you.
If you have more information you would like to share, that might be relevant to trying to figure this out, I am more than happy to go over it with you. I really would only like to help. I just get tired of not being listened to! :-/
I give you much credit for breeding, doing it right--and it's a shame this happened. I really am sorry it happened. I'm not a breeder and I am not trying to criticize your knowledge of breeding. I see that you know a bit of genetics but I really feel like the conclusion you came to is highly improbable. I take issue with (what I see as) scientific mis-information being given to people on the board, which is why I spoke up in the first place...about three posts ago.
I know you want an answer. Believe me, I can understand that... But once the DNA test comes back and proves you are right regarding parentage, I think the best thing you can do is just to try to accept what happened, knowing there will be no explanation that you can feel confident about. Given the complexity of the deformities, I would not automatically assume it is genetic, or controlled by a single genetic mutation. Many mutations, maybe. If your vet was speculating as to a genetic cause for this, I'd say that was irresponsible. With such a small sample size, only one generation, and no clue as to where on the chromosome this is coming from, my guess is you will not get any real answers from genetics.
***Edited By: illini on 8/15/2007 2:32:47 AM*** Reason: *