I have only been a member a very short time!!! But I dont forget the people who offered me sympathy & words of comfort when I lost my Siberian Husky after 15 years.. I am NOT a breeder....does that make me LESS of a animal lover... I think NOT!!!! No I do not know all the fact's on a breeder thats why I turned to this sight for information & insight on breeding....Stormy you have put a sour taste into my mouth about this sight...NOT about breeding...I would like to think we are all able to effectively communicate with each other ...are we going to disagree with each other ....question each other ....YOU BET!!...But lets have a little respect for other people on here...and not draw some one out on the carpet with your own personal DRAMA!! If your seeking attention lets do it in a more favorable way PM savannah because I do not take to you speaking so harshly of her when she only offered me words of comfort with my siberian passing...How DARE you. Every one deserves respect on here!!

How is anyone supposed to let this go if you people keep bringing it back up? You just added to the flame. DUH!!!

and again no one pushed your button new girl


But seriously how is starting yet another thread about it, the last thread was locked, had you not felt the need to start another BS thread about it it would likely have dies, but no you had to start it up yet again, way to go.

Dont ya just LOVE these "bash the bashers" threads ? They really fulfill a purpose here dont they ? Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black, dont ya think ?

Oh geesh.

The threads you are referring to are either locked or completely deleted. I kind of hate the deleted thing because I put a lot of thought into a couple of posts I made in the deleted thread about what I think makes a responsible breeder that were not directed at any individual.

Anyhow, I think there are something like 26 other threads on the first page to read or reply to that have nothing to do with criticizing that member.

Check out Kayla, for instance.
http://www.terrificpets.com/forum/46555.asp

Here we go again~ ANOTHER of Pyr's novellas! Sorry!

Shiny, I DO owe you a large apology for deleting your well thought out post along with the thread. If things had been a wee bit calmer, I would have PMd you to ask if you'd like to copy and paste it into a new thread, as it was a superb post. Mea Culpa! It may take you a while, but please forgive me!

As for the issue over any member questioning any other member over breeding practices, in all honesty, it's more HOW the questions are asked that are of a concern to me, both as a mod and as a pet lover.

Please remember that we (this forum) are a cross of individuals who are simply pet lovers/owners who have had great experiences with our pet's breeder as well as others with nightmare tales to tell. Both situations lead back to none other than the pup's breeder.

We also have those who are VERY involved in rescue and are totally against breeding with very rare exceptions. There are other members who are breeders. That mix of individuals, in and of itself, is going to direct "discussions" and sometime heated debates.

I have no problem, as a mod OR individual, in ANY breeder being asked about their breeding practices and philosophies. My "concern" is the manner in which the questions are asked. Perhaps, like many others, Storm's first post was worded as she "thought", not intended to be "hostile" or offensive, but it came across that way. It's hard for some to put down in words what they are thinking without coming across differently than they intended.

I am, personally, aware of more than a few breeders who took a second look and made major changes in their practices after discussions on this forum. If you are a great breeder, with excellent practices, you can help others. If you have areas that need improvement, you'll learn and fast from other members of this forum. The "helpful hints" MAY start out like being hit upside the head with a sledge hammer, but eventually, things do have a way of working themselves out, for the most part. There are others with breeding practices the vast majority will never accept, who are immobile to any hint of changes being needed.

Storm did reword and repost, but by that time, the board was in a frenzy, Savanah was upset and not interested in carrying on the discussion and EVERYONE had their own opinions, pro & con. The battle lines were drawn (so to speak). Storm had the right to post her questions, Savanah had the right to ignore them, feeling that she HAD answered in the thread I deleted. Once again, I SHOULD have PMd her, asking if she wanted to copy and paste her earlier response before deleting the entire thread. Things may very well have gone far differently with an actual DISCUSSION following. No way to tell, because I hit the delete button. I AM sorry that I didn't allow for those copy and paste actions.

Savanah has always presented a friendly and helpful attitude since she first joined, offering her advice to anyone with a question . I have no doubt that her consistent offers to advise others sparked an interest in what her "qualifications" might be.

In short, I think that Storm's questions were shared by others (as evidenced by the responses in the first thread) and that Savanah and others felt that those questions had been answered.

The first thread was deleted, the second locked. So it really isn't necessary for those not directly involved to continue sending me nasty PMs (30 yesterday, 15 of which were NOT the most pleasant) nor for other members (new or long term) to post NEW threads starting it all over again. Everyone, take a deep breath, have a cuppa' and have a lovely Sunday.

***Edited By: pyrmom on 8/19/2007 9:13:22 AM***
Reason: *

Thanks, Pyr, and I must say I don't envy your job one bit.

I agree with Pyrmom. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning another's practices-whether it be breeding, rescue, training, feeding, etc.

Also, not sure I like the idea of pm'ing someone with answers to questions. For one thing, I have seen more than once where a poster was given INCORRECT information! If someone pm's an answer, and it is wrong-the OP will never even know, because no one is able to point out the error! How do you KNOW whether information in a pm is correct? If you post an answer on the public forum (which might sound good to an uneducated person) and 10 people reply with, "that is bad advice!" I'd say you have a hint that that person doesn't know the answer to that question!

Personally, I think that sometimes (and probably often) if someone pm's answers to questions rather than answering on the forum, it's because they don't want others to see the advice, and maybe that's because they want to "appear" like they know more than they really do.

Catlover, I agree with you that to always Pm someone with info might not be the best way to give advice, as that advice could be wrong. What I'm finding is that I'm getting a lot of PM's asking for advice. In that case it's not appropriate to post the reply, but it's a good thing to bear in mind that others may have a different opinion, and also have extra information to contribute. When I get a question that I don't have a clue about, I always suggest
posting the question to the forum. I hope that is what everyone else would do too.

all i know is that im not a breeder at all im just a owner and this site and the people on it helped me a great deal when my dog was whelping.and i appericate all the advice that was shared with me.and not everyone is going to agree on everything but then again everyone does things differently.not everyone one raises there dogs the same just like everyone dont raise thier kids the same.i think all the people on here are kind.you ask for help here u get it it helps you with your pet which is why you aksed in the first place.if you dont agree call a vet and research the answer.but do we always have to bash people that are just doing wat ya ask of them.all i care is that my pet is ok healthy and fine so as long as you get your answer and it saves ur pet thats all that should matter.some people talk in pm i guess they r afraid others will bash them if they ask certain questions that people think they should know just because they own a pet.sometimes when given advice it has to be straight up and not be sugar coated.....you all have helped me and i thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Oh Pyr, I am so not mad, nothing to forgive! While I am like "Dang it! That sucks!" I didn't even think to be angry at you for doing it. Mine wasn't the only post there worthy of keeping around and I should think it would be a great deal of extra time and effort to go through and PM each person who had a post that they might want to keep around! I would have probably done the same thing that you did.

ok, skky now for some reason I now think a lot less of you for posting this. don't you think there are enough of these threads out there? and now you just added one more drama filled page to here. good job! hope your proud of youself.

and to all of the other people that posted on stormys original thread she was only trying to talk to one person in general. and all her questions were directed twards savanna. no one else. I don't think stormy went about it the right way tho. but I too was questioning her breeding skills.

I might not be on this site as much as I used to, and I might not post as many things as I used to but I still read and post on things I am conserned about if I feel my voice is needed. this is one of them.

with the issue involving savanna, no breeder should have over one litter at a time. and sertainly not 30 puppys at a time. I am sticking with stormys opinion. that sounds like a byb to me. and also I was wondering about health papers. so mabey stormy was trying to do everyone a favor and expose her for what she is or she could help her out by showing how good of a breeder she is. I think stormy made some good points in there, like if she's on here all the time that she couldn't possibly take care of 30 pups and give them all the attention that they need in order to be properly raised and trained.

so everyone, in all reality stormy was right. and in my opinion I think everone was over reaction about all this. sure she might have went about asking savanna the wrong way, but still the post wasn't directed to almost all of the people that posted on that thread. right? so if you guys would have just read it and left your opinions to yourself then mabey we wouldn't be having this hold drama issue going on right now right?

go ahead and bash on me for my opinions and my views. my opinions will not change unless I am shown proof of savanas breeding and health papers.


stormy is a good and respected member on this forum. there is no reason for such bashing to go on right now. am ashamed.

Well I will say one thing and ONE thing only. For the respect of Cat I will drop this, and for ONLY that reason. I have been friends with Cat for years, we've been threw a lot (including hurricanes together LOL)

If YOU honestly wanted this dropped YOU would NOT have made another post about it, and thats a fact. Take YOUR own advise and write me a PM, but since my PM box is filled with PMs from people saying thanks for asking these questions to Savannah because they fell the same. Too bad these people have not spoke up, but like many want to stay out of the heat. I for one have always been one to be up front and ask questions, if you don't like the way I am then it's this, simple don't read my posts. I ignore several people here and when they directly ask me questions I will ignore them. I admit that I do come across as a total b**ch and I will admit that I am, but my questions were serious questions that I and many feel need to be answered. Yes I saw the peds on her site BUT they are not breeding stock by any means. I also believe she has more dogs that she says, as there are pups from dogs that are NOT listed on her site (both male and female not listed). Also she has males that are under the age of 2 years only 1 that is not, along with I *think* there were 12 females, again 1 male matting with that many females (not saying she doesn't get studs) Again not something a true breeder would do, breed a dog under the age of 2 years. There are many questions that are unanswered and will remain unanswered because there are no answers. There is no need to breed these dogs. I will give Savannah that she is trying, she is trying to get these dogs in shows and title them but IMHO (and many others) breeding needs to STOP until they are titled.

Also, giving advise in PM form doesn't help out the ones that are here searching for answers. When questions are answered on the board it makes for less posts asking the same questions over and over. People come here for advise and most do NOT become a member,( look at the visitor numbers daily) putting these answers on the baord will also help out those people as well. Hiding answers to important questions on a OPEN board is pointless, why even be part of the forum? Just write emails all day long......


Everyone is so quick to choose sides not knowing anything. Had my questions been answered the first time (worded poorly or not) this would NOT have gone this far. Everyone is in an uproar for what? Because someone called someone else out, that is part of life, like it or leave it.

Stormy, I think you did the right thing and did ask the questions that most of us on this forum have been thinking ourselfs but never asked for many reasons.

Anyone can claim that they have done the correct testing on their dogs before breeding but how do we really know that she does this testing? anyone can say they do testing and honestly dont.

WOw thats alot of puppies to have at one time and i dont even see how anyone could socialize let alone give those babies the attention they crave and deserve to grow healthy. I have 3 young dogs ( Bentley is 1.7 months and Daisy is 1 and Louie is 13 weeks) and i have a hard time myself giving them each the attention they want and i dont even know how it can be done with that many puppies.
How can a bond even be made with that many pups? seems like they woudlnt get the love and attention they need being there is so many at one time.

The questions that stormy asked are all valid and inquiring minds want to know.........

Wow...another why can't we all get along thread. Been there done that. Give it up people, this is a public forum. We are ALL entitled to OUR opinions. If you are going to post on this forum you are fair game especially if you claim to be a breeder. I have no problem with people questioning other people's breeding practices...if you claim to be an expert be prepared for some tough questions.

Exactly right Corgi and Tap,
Stormy's questions are valid and should be answered straight forward without getting the run around. If you have nothing to hide, then you have no worries.

Regarding the question,

"Anyone can claim that they have done the correct testing on their dogs before breeding but how do we really know that she does this testing?"

This is not something that can be lied about. Both OFA and CERF's websites are searchable for free, by the general public, specifically so that potential buyers can verify a breeder's claim.

***Edited By: illini on 8/19/2007 5:40:47 PM***
Reason: *

Don't you have to have the registered names to do that? Just wondering.:)

CERF is Canine Eye Registration Foundation... that is the certificate that comes from Purdue.

ACVO is American College of Veterinary Opth.

When a canine is tested ANNUALLY for its eyes, they can be either CERF or ACVO. Mine are ACVO.. its the identical thing.

Optigen testing is not listed as it's actually only become more common over the past 6/7 years however the dogs are Optigen tested too.

OFA is listed, OFA Pre Lims are not. (on the OFA website)

Just thought I would help clarify