Shinyblackpit and Pitpatz are two very knowledgable and responsible pit owners also.

weimngolden,
I didn't think the questions were insulting at all. It is always best to ask that is how we all learn :)

I put the links up in the post heheh take a peek.


huskyseehuskydo,
Thanks so much! :) There are tons of great owners unfortiunately they are not the ones usually heard about. It is the irresponsible ones that make the news :(

First I am not a Pit owner so I could be wrong - BUT for any breed in which bloodlines are important or there might be a concern for the animals health, the best place to go to research responsible breeders is the breed's association, i.e. National American Pit Bull Terrier Association. While they might not have lists of breeders to hand out they definitely will know and have on record the pedigree of full blood dogs. They also will most likely be able to recommend individuals with good reputations and tell you the breeders of the top show dogs in the country. No matter what breed, most top show dogs are well behaved. They have to be as an aggressive dog is not allowed within the ring. With a breed like a pit bull, or a german shepherd, or doberman, etc. in which the dogs were originally breed for protection/aggressive tendencies the best thing to do is check out the breeder. And not just on paper. GO TO THEIR HOMES! See the set up and how the other dogs behave. IF anything looks odd or makes you concerned, walk away. If the breeder does not ask YOU questions about your ability to handle a 'strong' dominate dog, walk away. A responsible breeder of these dogs DOES NOT want someone to have them who can not handle/take care of them. In fact, some of the best breeders do not release their dogs to the buyers until the breeders have trained the dogs some themselves.

This is why a good quality purebreed is so expensive. Some of the best German Shepherds (from Europe) sell for several hundred thousand dollars. I wouldn't say go that expensive (LOL!), but I would most definitely be willing to fork over more money if I was going for a dog from an aggressive bloodline - to make sure that I got a dog from a quality breeder.

BTW: I have seen sweet Pits and bad Pits, I have seen sweet Poms and vicious Poms, I have seen sweet poodles and mean poodles. I personally think that Pits get more of a reaction because they are one of the types of breeds who have a strong bite and they are big. Their bites can do a LOT of damage. They were also originally breed so that when they bit, they would not be thrown off. Does this make them bad dogs, no. But it does make them dogs you need to know how to handle before you take ownership of them - and unfortunatley too many people take ownership of dogs (any breed) before they understand the responsibilities of that ownership.

To the OP.....

"As a pitbull owner (i know those of you on here have very nice pitbulls, and even have them around kids, i think one of you even said you have them as a therapy dog??) how did you research the dogs bloodline and is there a way to know if there was any agressive pitbulls in its background."

I got dogs from breeders that I knew and trusted. I knew the dogs back x amount of generations so I knew what their temperaments were like, anything beyong that I looked at the pedigree to see what dogs were there and the bloodlines they came from. One person I did get a dog from I didn't know and had it shipped, but I did research on that breeder, I wanted to make sure I wouldn't get screwed (i.e. pay and get no dog or pay and get a sick dog), I was already confident in the how the dogs temperament would be because I set out looking for that bloodline and thats what the pedigree had.

"Also, is there any way to be sure that your dog does not come from a fighting ring (or any other type of agressive past) background?"

You have to look at the breeders dogs, if you think they are fighting their dogs just don't buy from them. But as far as background look at the pedigree, I have several dogs from game lines but I don't consider them aggressive. I think this is a common misconception of the breed. Fighting dog=mean/aggressive/vicious dog.
Like this male for instance http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Riverpicturehorse.jpg
Fighting dogs of the old days were bred to be stable around people, generally any man biter was culled. It wouldn't be safe to handle a fighting dog that is going to bite you when you pick it up, try to seperate it, defang it or treat its wounds. This doesn't mean they were 100% culled, but thats just like any other breeder, many people breed show dogs with crappy temperaments. I've seen some down right scarey ones in all breeds! But the reason we have such a nice naturally human friendly dogs today is because of the culling of the aggressive dogs in the past by fighters. APBTs are one of the few dogs I know who will be fighting and you can easily grab and separate them, I've seen and heard of other people getting bit regularly by other breeds if they decide to fight.
As its been said Patch o's dogs are therapy dogs, a long time back they asked if I could help in researching further back in Patcheeno's pedigree (a dog that is just a wonderful example of the breed and so handsome), looking through the pedigree I found several known gamelines, fighting dogs 5 generations back and I remember for sure there was some Kingfish blood in there. Is this a problem? NO. Why? Because all APBTs are going to trace back to fighting dogs, they were extensively bred for this for a long time. My dogs that are of gamelines doesn't make them aggressive. One dog I have was abused/neglected (scarred, sick and skinny) and fought before I got him and he is one of the sweetest dogs I've had, super friendly, loves all animals, can play with other adult males.
Most people know of "Petey The Pit Bull" the Lil Rascals mascot from the Our Gang comedies. That dog was bred for the "fighting ring" as you call it. His sire was a Grand Champion fighting dog, pretty well know Tudor's Black Jack who was a winner of 16 fights and produced the same in his offspring. You must think of fighting dogs like any other, one "job" or "task" they have doesn't dictate the entirety of their life. Also people think that a fighting dog must be an aggressive dog, but aggression and gameness are 2 different things.

I also wonder why everything is always centered around this breed? Many things are not unique to this breed. Dog Aggression, there are many other breeds known to have this trait Akita, Tosa, Bull Terriers, chow and several others. It is natural for dogs to have pack orders and to try to rule eachother, we expect these dogs to have no canine instincts. They are domesticated but you can't take everything out of them. The same is true of prey drive and you will find many breeds that have a high one, Coonhound and Jack Russels are a couple and many will kill a small prey animal. I just wrote about answers to these questions in our club newsletter, so maybe I will post that in a different post. But one thing I mentioned is prey drive is a natural canine instinct (sometimes it can be very useful in different types of work), it is the same reason your cat might kill a rabbit, its no different for a dog and not unique for the breed. Your dog might not kill your pet cat (its part of the pack) but will chase (maybe kill) a rabbit, skunk or such.

"I know they are trained to be mean most of the time, but how come ones that have never shown agression, and are very friendly in the past just snap? Is it in their bloodlines?"

Again I wrote about this too, it was a slew of different questions and I should really post that whole thing, but NO DOG OF ANY BREED JUST SNAPS. There are indicators of behavioral problems, many people ignore it. In other cases the owners just don't know what to look for, its there but they don't have a good handle on canine behavior. A dogs bloodlines will go into making him, proper breeding is a must in any breed for good temperament. Bad dogs come from not just bad owners, but bad breeders. Temperament is hereditary, so even if they are raised with love doesn't mean they won't have a poor temperament. I think this is a common misconception that the dogs are trained to be mean. In some cases they are but a lot of mean dogs are from owners who just don't know how to properly train, spoil their pets or don't socialize them and from poor breeding.

Jackie said
"In this case, his dogs were chained. I hate chaining any animal, this has been proven to cause certain behavioral problems."

This is yet another myth. Chaining a dog does not give it behavior problems. I would think locking a dog in the basement away from human contact is what will make a dog nuts, they are social animals and need socialization, if that dog had been free in the basement its temperament would have likely been the same. I've heard the silliest things from it makes them scared or aggressive. How a dog behaves depends on how that dog is raised (and bred which still plays a major role). Whether the dog is on a chain, in a kennel or indoors all the time (there are different indoor options too), what has the greatest effect of the dogs temperament isn't the method used to keep your pet, its what you have or haven't put in doing with your dog.
I have only met a handful of bad Pit Bulls (out of thousands) and the nastiest were the indoor pets. One dog nearly took my arm off, she is also the same dog that went through the window in an aggressive attack. Anyway this dog was raised indoor, spoiled (1st mistake) she already was a more dominant dog and allowed to do whatever she wanted, where ever she wanted and whenever, if she wanted the couch it was hers and she was fed eggs or other human dishes in the morning for breakfast. This was not a chained dog. Her temperament issues (which I'm sure breeding played a part) should have been nipped in the bud from the beginning, instead they were allowed to mulitply. I came knocking on the door, he opens it only enough to fit part of his body out, the dog is trying to get out behind him, she makes it and lunged right at me threw the air, if I didn't have quick reflexes she would have grabbed my arm, he threw himself on top of her after she missed. Well then they bred her (yup stupid), kept a male pup and its got the same crazy temperament. He is very bad with their grand kids/nieces. It scares me what might happen one day. Then they bought another female that is the very same to breed to the crazy male. She tried to bite 3 people in one day (while out on a walk) and wanted to attack my Pit Bull who was just ignoring her. Their grandson was walking him and when they dog reacted he almost fell on his face and lost control, that dog would have come at me and my dog after I told him not to bring her up in the yard. He's like oh she just wants to play, which she did not. and she doesn't bite. The other aggressive Pit I knew that was finally put down (after biting a couple people and going after two 7yr old girls) was raised inside with a family and children. But she wasn't socialized either and had a fearful temperament from puppyhood which requires extra attention.

Most bad dogs I've seen with scarey temperaments have been raised indoors by pet owners, they never take the dog out, never work with or train the dog and then wonder why the dog doesn't like/is scared of people, ect. It doesn't matter if you keep your dog on a chain, in a kennel or in your home. No matter what the dog needs obedience training and socialization. My dogs (no matter how they are kept) all well behaved social dogs. They are extremely affectionate and stable dogs. They have no temperament or behavior issues. Usually when I take my dogs out in public whether that be petco, walks, vets they are honestly the most well behaved dogs there. That is because they are trained, they know how to behave and have been socialized. A lot of people fail to socialize (besides those who spoil) which I see as a major issue. I've been studying on the breed Cane Corso most people here even those who do protection work also do obedience work and socialize, socialize which they stess is super important. That way they have a well behaved dog, it will protect/guard when needed/told to and be friendly and sociable otherwise. On the other hand there are many breeders in Italy who have their dogs in enclosed, gated estates and those dogs are nasty with anyone no matter what because they are not socialized. All they know is this is my territorial whether that be a huge yard or inside the home. So its the same for any breed. I start socializing mine young, get them used to different experiences, sounds, people. Just taking them in town with me, running to petco or at each show they go to there is also a bunch of people/other dogs/noise. How to keep your dog differs for each dogs, some hate kennels and some hate chains. But generally the most secure way is a chain over most kennels (there are some very good ones that I use) because the dog can too easily get out.

Raven that is horrible!

1. That dog wasn't socialized (and probably poorly bred).
2. Should have never been bred.
3. It doens't matter if the dog has pups or not, it shouldn't be overly protective towards its family. They should be able to handle the pups anytime.
4. They knew the dog was mean, why were they endangering their childs life? The dog should have been PTS before this ever occured.

You are so right about the media, one attack I read about that was in newspapers said. Bronx Girls Attacked by Pit Bull (or something to that effect), but thats not really what happened. Not sure who actually did the attacking as one says the Pit Bull wasn't involved, another said the Boxer did it, another said the American Bulldog did it and another says there was Pit Bull/Boxer mixed involved, so who really know what dog bit her and what breed it was. Misidentification is one of the biggest problem with this breed. Others too, if a Belgian bites people will probably say a German Shepherd bit me, if a black dog bites it will probably be called a Lab. But then you have the media's blattent lies too, once a large Black Lab really did severaly maul a boy. Of course the news didn't report it like that, it has to be a Pit Bull, they went to the shelter and filmed a chocolate Pit Bull as if that were the dog!! Later they were forced to put a (very small) correct that no one probably paid much mind to.

***Edited By: truepits on 8/24/2007 4:55:23 AM***
Reason: ...

Great posting Trupits

Thanks Dusty! :-)

They've said it so well that I don't have anything to add!

Thanks Dusty... I forgot about those two! I haven't had much dealing with pitpatz, but I know shinyblackpit is a good source of info as well. She always gives good level-headed advice about pits.

Sorry I forgot you shiny!

Great post Truepits...
I have to disagree with the chaining dogs up though. I know even with Huskies, who are not known to be overly territorial, can have some issues with being tied up. That is why we decided against the whole dog yard setup.

We may tie them for short periods just to get them used to it, there are situations where they do need to be tied when out and about. But I don't like to tie them as a means of containment. That is why we invested in a very high-quality underground fence. They get the freedom that they crave in a safe environment. They have no desire to go through the fence, even with a prey animal on the other side. But that is off-topic... I just wanted to make a comment about the being tied up thing!

Truepits>>> I stand corrected. That was an excellent post. Thanks for all the info.

Wow, very good comments. Anyone like me who wanted to get educated about pit bulls this thread is a great source of information.

thank you everyone, i appreciate it.

Huskeysee.....

How a dog is kept depends on the breed, individual dog, the situation, ect. But to state simply things like chaining a dog makes them mean or scared or a number of other things I've seen said is inaccurate and a blanket statement.
The fact is that chaining doesn't always cause problems. I didn't mean to say that chaining is the best way for every dog in every situation, I guess I just get tired of some of the bull I've read on it.

I've heard people say anything from chaining is inhumane to chained dogs can be easily poisoned. These same people advocate kenneling of dogs. Kenneled dogs can easily be poisoned too and they can also be stolen but they never think of that. The dog in mention wasn't bad because it was chained, being isolated and unsocialized (i.e. locked in the basement) away from human contact is what has made the dog that way, probably amoung other things. How is it that people don't make this connection? Animal experiments (which I don't really agree on) have been done on many social animals to see the psychologic effects of isolation on them. One that has the worse effects on is the highly social creatures who also have a high intelligence like monkies. They take a money and give it no contact with other monkey or people. The money goes mad and resorts to "crazy behavior" pounding on its cage, and self mutilation like pulling out its hair and biting itself. Dogs are similar, if isolated and unsocialized they will have behavior problems. I have seen some that were so bad they did the self mutilation as well and had chewed open wounds on their own legs or excessively licked themselves. One rescue/foster female I had was like this.

I have had APBTs for years, I think that I am confident in evaluating the best way to keep my own dogs. If they have the territorial issue they would have it their kennels, but my dogs don't have this at all and I find it unacceptable behavior. If you keep a dog locked in a kennel all the time with no attention or training it will have issues.

Chains are fine for me personally because I can give the dog a lot bigger area to play and be secured in, I can go out and give them attention easier while they are still on the chain vs in a kennel. I take my dog for walks and play with them and the whole bit. Say I'm outside doing other yard work and my dogs are outside some in kennels and some on chains, who can I easier pet or throw a ball too without them being loose and right where I'm trying work? Who can I easier pet and have give their doggie hugs to me when I'm walking by them to the shed. With most of my dogs they tear up kennels, this isn't because of aggression or prey drive, its either a toy to them to rip apart or they hate being locked in a caged environment.

I had one male that I put in a kennel and he totally destroyed it, I redid the chain link and put wood to keep him from pushing out the bottom/sides, he still jerked in the chainlink and still hated it. I put him on a chain (in the kennel) and took the door off. He did the very same thing his grandsire did, just hated the kennel/wanted to feel more free (I'm assuming). Anytime in the kennel he would always lay on the outside of the kennel, he didn't want to be in the kennel, he didn't like it. So then to me it made little sense to have him in a kennel at all when he would never stay in it anyway, so then I just put him straight on a chain. He was a lot happier there. I have invested in the steel kennels as these are much more secure then the chainlink, I have also got the tops for them and the bottom has rebar or cement around the perimature to prevent escape digging. For some dogs this is ok because they can't get out, but for the ones who don't like it I won't force them to stay in it. Even though they can't destroy it like the chainlink they will pull and tug on the sides, which damages their teeth, on a chain they behave contently.

Dogs can become territorial when kept in a number of ways, in a nice big fenced yard, kennel, crate, home, ect. Even without a fence the Heelers and ACDs I see are very protective of their territory. Boerboels are also very protective and territorial but don't need an electric/invisible fence because they won't leave the property. This is one trait that is needed in a guard breed/guard dog. The Cane Corsos I've mentioned are being very territorial (I would say almost overly and without discretion) because its part of their instincts to be territorial as a guardian breed. However these Cane Corsos behave in an extreme fashion because they don't have training and socialization. This works the same with a chained dog. That dogs need daily attention, excersize (not just physical but mental), it needs care. They need to be trained and socialized. The can't be kept on a chain all the time and be wel adjusted.

What is your definition of territoral also? Because when I think of that I think of it as defensive/protective of their space. My dogs aren't like that in any fashion no matter where they are kept.

I don't disagree in not chaining certain breeds or individual dogs. Do what works best for the dog. It is off topic but I think its important say. My dogs are very well bahaved, well cared for, adjust and happy dogs. Haven't seen negative behaviors with a tie out vs a kennel.

I have a pit bull, so I like to read what other people think about them. I just wanted to say that I've had my pit bull since he was about 8 weeks old and under no circumstances has he been abused (unless it was in the first 8 weeks of his life), and he definitely has some aggression issues. So I just wanted to add that it is not true that aggression is simply caused by a mistreated dog. My dog Riley is aggressive around children. I've done nothing to provoke that, other than the fact that he hasn't had A LOT of socialization with children (some but not a lot). Sometimes he tries to lunge towards people that walk by when I take him out for a walk.....I have no clue what sets this off. So as much as it bothers me that he has a few aggression issues, I know I haven't really done anything to make him this way. What I can do is prevent anything from happening as a cause of this aggression. If I have people over, I introduce him slowly until he is comfortable (by the end of the day, they are his new best friends). When I take him for a walk, I keep him on a 4 foot leash, and keep him from jumping up if anyone is walking by. I don't have him around children at all. As long as I prevent any bad situations, Riley stays a happy, lovable, kissable pitty!

I'm sure there are several factors as to why we are seeing more dog aggression these days, as opposed to days gone by. I'm certainly no expert, but I believe we are seeing an upsurge in attacks, number one due to inbreeding. Another thing is there are a lot more dogs/people than their used to be, living in closer knit communities and more cramped spaces. A lot of dogs don't have adequate room to run, thus this may increase the chances of aggressive or destructive behavior, esp if they are not exercised properly. I live in a rural area, however it is quite a different place now than it was.. say 20 years ago. I have much closer neighbors than I once had and most of us all own dogs, thus a greater chance of conflict. Another reason is simply because of media hype. A Dalmation biting someone doesn't sell newspapers like a crazed Pit Bull would. Several of my family members own Chihuahuas and their dogs have some of the nastiest little temperaments I've ever seen, they just aren't big enough to inflict damage like a large, powerful dog could. Certainly all Chihuahua's are not of bad temperaments, just like all Pit Bulls aren't. There again, I've seen aggressive behavior in many individual dogs, not just specific or bully breeds which seem to be a common misconception. It's of my opinion, there are very few dogs who literally snap or go stark raving mad, attacking for no reason. If we look at the overall picture, there is most likely going to be a human at fault, rather than the dog itself.

I just trusted mine. I knew my Pit Bull came from my aunt who didnt fight him so I just trusted that my dog wasnt aggressive. I work with him everyday, take him to dog parks, and just normal things a Dog owner would to make sure he is safe and good with people and other animals. If you are not sure how he will react keep him on a leash mabey even a muzzle and slowly approach a possible problem. I dont act nervous because i have heard dogs can feel tenseness. So i act calm a reashure him everything is fine. I take my Pit Bull to the elderly home across the way every week so the elderly can pet him and love him. When i got him i was sure about his history but not about his parents history so i just did my best to, if he had any, over come his past. They are sweet dogs and i think even the ones who have been fought deserve to go to a good home where the owners are willing to take the precautions so the dog can have a normal life. It is not the dogs fault, tis the owners...

Hey Doc, I have a question on something you said. I think you had a well written post and agree that most of what you said makes sense.

One thing I'm wondering is

"number one due to inbreeding."

Do you mean poor inbreeding or inbreeding overall? I would really think the #1 one reason is bad breeding, producing more bad dogs in the next generation and in turn those dogs go to inexperience/irresponsible owners.

I think the popularity and overbreeding of a breed causes a big destruction in it. In the Pit Bull I haven't seen the majority of aggressive dogs come from inbred dogs, I've actually seen in the opposite in scatterbred dogs. I'm not leaning one way or the other, I think if its poorly bred it doesn't matter what use was created to make it. Both the aggressive females I talked about were scatterbred (I know their peds) the one female who was bred and produced the aggressive son was bred yet looser again and the female they bought that had issues also wasn't inbred.

Pit Bulls from the beginning have almost always been inbred (I believe its similar in most purebreeds) yet they were known to have some of the best temperaments of the time, were considered the "All American Dog" and a War mascot for our country.

I have seen some aggressive inbred dogs (mainly May Day bloodline) and I think that this is due to the issue being there in the first place, you can't get something thats not there, inbreeding is going to magnify that trait like it would any trait. But I've still seen a couple dogs with off temperaments that were not inbred May Day dogs, but May Day bred to something else.

Most of the really good dogs I've seen health and temperament wise are from inbred/linebred dogs. I think thats due to the fact that most good breeder practice this where most bybs and millers just breed this dog to that dog and then over and over diluting the bloodlines where they are scatterbred dogs. Some bybs do inbred too, which is pretty scarey because they are magnifying any bad traits the dogs have that they won't even know about. But in general they just breed to the next available dog and scatterbreed but the dogs still have bad temperaments.

The other female pit (before being put down) actually had an accidental litter was a shepherd mix which is far from inbred but they were already showing her shy temperament that will lead to fear aggression in the wrong hands like hers did.

pitbullknr Have you tried working with a trainer or animal behaviorist? I have had my bully since she was 3 months & jumped into training as soon as I adopted her. For background history I was told she was terrified of men and was very likely an abuse case (due to obvious injuries & trauma to the eye) my trainer made us approach every man in town until she got over it. For her situation it was better to face issues head on & work on "getting over it" rather than promoting bigger issues later down the road.

There are just some things that I don't agree with. First of all I believe that a dog that is left on a chain has the tendency to become mean. I have witnessed it too often. And if the dog on the chain doesn't become mean, then they are usually broken of spirit and cowar and pee all over themselves when someone comes up to them. I'm sure there's no dog that would prefer to be on a chain.

The dog that True was referring to that bit her is a classic example of how pit bulls wind up in the news for attacking. First of all you have numerous intack males and females running amok competing and breeding like a pack o wild animals. The only ones to establish any hierarchy in that household were the dog. Those are the types that eventially turn on their own families and bites someone.

My pit bull Grace was rescued from extreme bad conditions from the Barrio of South Phoenix. She already showed signs of aggression at just a couple of months. She would have been the perfect example of a vicious dog if she were kept on a chain. She should have probably been euthanized, but I wanted to give her a chance. She was spayed as soon as it was possible. She was socialized and handled by a lot of people. We already had another young pit bull of the opposite sex. She was trained to view me as her pack leader and she earns everything she gets. The only problems we have with her is dog aggression with strange dogs. Again, her breeding made her brain hard-wired to that fact and there was nothing we can do but be vigilant about other dogs. She likes our cats except for one. Again, we have to make concessions. But, these two things are small when we consider what a great dog she has become. Bad knees, hypo-thyroid and all.

For almost every pit bull attack on a person, I can tell you why it happened and how it could have been avoided.

It's impossible to ignore the effects of poor breeding-- I had dogs all my life on the farm back in Ohio and never got bitten by one until I jumped on the "Omg, dalmations!" bandwagon.

We never ever gave anything but love to that dog but he was very aloof. One day I came outside and sat down on the porch next to him and snapped at me, biting me right in the face. I'm convinced no amount of love or training would have fixed what ailed him.

Pitpaz

I think you are a very smart person on this forum when it comes to the pits. But none of my dogs are mean or cower....lol They have never peed on themselves, or showed any other overly submissive behavior. If you would like I can upload video to photobucket to show how my dogs behave. You think they can become a Champion by cowering and peeing on themselves or trying to attack the judge? The video includes social situations. I have several videos of my dogs at shows and had home with strangers. They do not react mean or submissive. Those things you've mentioned occur because of poor breeding and lack of socialization, not because of a chain. A dog LEFT on a chain as you say is true so I do agree with you there, but this is the same as a dog left in a kennel, crate, yard or basement, ect. Any dog without human contact, training and socialization is going to have issues. These issues are usually fear aggression or all out fear. I just want to make it clear to others that its not the chain causes the problem its the careless and lazy owners.

I never said a dog bit me? I don't think you are fully reading my post? One dog attempted to bite me. I'm not sure where you are getting the nurmerous intact males/females part either? These people had one FEMALE dog and she was it. She was intact but didn't have anyone else to compete with. They did breed her LATER and in turn keep a male but she attempted the bite BEFORE this. They spayed her and said it was a mistake to breed her but then wanted to breed her son to the female they got later (when he was about a year old). Its how they raised their dogs, and the sire of the son was an overly protective/aggressive male so I think part of his problems is genes on both ends. I do agree they are very dangerous, I fear for their grandchildren and niece/nephews as these dogs have tried to dominate them and it can only turn bad.

Also the other female who bit people and lunged at the girls was an ONLY dog. She was intact and had an accidental litter. She was a crazy dog. Scared me at times, unpredictable I guess you could say.

It seems that this time you've added or changed what I said to fit what you want to say which isn't right. My dogs have never acted aggressive including barking, growling, biting and they have never cower or peed on themselves either. They see a person they wag their tail, want to play. My dogs act the same no matter what method I use. When people meet my dogs they are shocked at how well behaved, friendly and outgoing they are. Usually what I get is wow I never knew Pit Bulls could be like this. Of course they get a speech on what a real Pit Bull is supposed to act like.

Hi Truepits,
Yours was a great post as well as many of the others. Linebreeding and inbreeding mean different things to different people, so I will try to better clarify what I meant by the inbreeding remark. Linebreeding is generally accepted as a milder form of inbreeding. Like you, I have seen both good and bad in both linebred and outcrossed dogs. When I said inbreeding, I was most specifically talking about those dogs that are so closely bred as to be considered grossly incestuous if it were in people, esp that of say.. brother/sister or parent/offspring. I do feel it is a two-edged sword being that on one hand, a milder form of inbreeding such as linebreeding can often be used to fix or improve upon animals. On the other hand, excessively close breeding can have detrimental effects resulting in all kinds of deformities, reproductive depression, autoimmune malfunctions and other serious health or behavioral manifestations. I wasn't trying to knock linebreeding as there are many fine linebred animals out there. Myself, I don't have a problem with outcrossing and have encountered no problems thus far. While I'd certainly like to see a reduction in close inbreeding, of the utmost importance is the reduction/elimination of "bad or irresponsible" breeding. Thanks for your kind words about my post. There seem to be many well educated folks on here sharing some great information. I enjoyed this thread very much. : )