I just said I do not breed Schnauzer's I never said I did not show Schnauzers, because I have shown and groomed show schnauzers for several years. I use to groom the number one schnauzer in the nation, so I think I have a pretty good grasp on what a good one should look like.

And once again I will try to explain. THE AKC DOES NOT SET THE BREED STANDARD FOR ANY BREED. THE BREEDS PARENT CLUB DOES THAT. It is submitted to the members of the breed club to be voted on. Then if it is accepted by the breeds parent club, then it is submitted to the AKC. A breed standard can not be altered by the parent club once it has be submitted for a 5 year period. You may think me a snob, but at least I have valid factual information to submit to this discussion. Not just rantings based on personal desires.

Everyone that has discussed this topic has bashed me as a breeder

katori81: Would you care to show me where I bashed you?

And while you're at it, please keep in mind:
If you want to critisize me get your information correct and trying reading exactly what I post not what you would like to think I said to make your argument better.

You never said anything about showing or grooming the number one in the NATION schnauzer until now so forgive me if I don't trust that comment, and if I may ask what year was that?? Ok maybe I got who set the standard for the breed wrong, but besides that I am not just ranting on personal desires! If I recall right YOU said that a white schnauzer has health issues??!! Of course you can expect the common health issues that come with any color schnauzer, such as hypothyroidism, urinary stones, P.R.A., etc. White is simply not allowed because it is not a standard color, not because of some so called health issued. Also White is not a genetic abnormality....the original Schnauzers were white!! I have done my research on this dog, that is how I came across this web site and the posting about breeding a white schnauzer. I would like to breed my puppy to keep a puppy that is of a standard color...which would mean I want to better the breed...=) Part of that whole Ethics thing... At all times breed for the improvement of the breed as exemplified by the AKC standard. I never once said anything about "I WANT TO BREED ALL WHITE PUPPIES." That was from an earlier post from someone else!

NoDogYet
You are right. I am sorry, you did not bash me at all. Just posted facts about the Schnauzer. So I apologize, you were not in that group of people bashing.

People have strong opinions here. Breeding is a controversial topic on this board. If you've done your homework like you say you have, there's no reason to get defensive just because someone doesn't agree with you.

Stay calm, read carefully, and you'll learn a great deal from the people here -- even the ones you do not agree with.

It's not just the fact that they disagree, it's that they are calling me BYB and telling me I'm just in it for the money and spend no money on the dog herself. But I guess you could learn some things, they just don't need to be so critical.

Well, I think you got smeared with the same broad brush that was intended for the OP. Clearly, if you've never bred, you can't be a BYB, so why get defensive?

The internet being what it is, people don't necessarily believe first time posters. If you hang around for awhile, you have a chance of building up some credibility. You have to admit that when you reacted emotionally in follow-on posts, you made more mistakes. That did not help you.

I can't emphasize enough -- breeding is a HOT topic. Some people here don't want anyone to breed ANYTHING until all the shelters are empty. So don't think you're the only one to get picked on.

Well I guess that is understandable. I'll work on not getting defensive, thanx for taking the time to talk to me.

katori81
You posted the rules about bashing breeders, and then turn around and call us snobs. Then question why we would come onto a pet forum instead of a show forum and post. I would think for someone with 47 years in the sport of purebred dogs and dogs in general that is willing to come on to a pet forum and share there experiance and knowledge, it might be a value to others.

As for the number one Schnauzer in the nation, I misquoted. He was the number one male in the nation and the number two overall. A bitch named Ruby Slippers was number one. If you happen to have a copy of Dog News from June 16, 2005 and turn to page 73, you will see Ch Lion'L A-train of Hansenhuas aka Casey Jones. If you look at the bottom you will see my name as the assistant. I use to get that dog ready for the show ring on a regular basis. If you turn further back to page 133 you will see my dog that was top ranked dog as well. My dog has had two invitations to Westminster dog show, two invitations to Eukanuba. His son that I bred has also recieved his 3rd invitation to Eukanuba and two invitations to Crufts in England.
If you saw the Standard Schnauzer in the Group ring at last years Eukanuba invitational, yep I got her ready for the ring that day as well.

Yes, we can be very critical, but it is only out of concern for the dogs welfare and the future of the purebred dogs we love so much.

That many years of knowledge can be alot of help to new dog owners, you just come across kinda harsh I guess. I would like to ask you a question about grooming....Is there a space between the eye brows that you clip, or do the eye brows come together? I've watched videos on here and read instructions on how to do it, but alot of people are clipping them in different ways.

A properly groomed Schnauzer is only clipped on the private parts, the U under the neck and cheeks the little V in the bottom of the foot and the ears. The rest is all hand stripped in 3 stages normally 2-3 weeks apart. And yes the hair between the eyes is pulled by hand to make two separate eye brows. The eyebrows are scissored into the angled shape and the leg furnishings are scissored. It takes a lot of experiance to learn proper scissoring and a really good pair scissors.

Thank you....I've read about stripping them, but without showing her I don't want to put her through that. Although they do look beautiful when they are groomed properly.

I say that you as well are a BYB.. the parti is just icing on the cake. You cannot better the breed, if you are breeding specifically for pets.. ie what every colors you see fit. The original schnauzers were not white... not sure where you are getting that information.

Do me a favor, and go find another breed to ruin. They really dont need your "help".

Has anyone heard from dogfan70 lately? That's who started this purty lil thread.

katori81, I'm not trying to bash, but I don't understand why you aren't listening to these people that might know a little more than you on this subject. Take their advice, even if it comes across harsh. This is a pet forum, which means people on here only want what is best for animals in general. They tend to get upset when people come on here talking about breeding their dogs "just because", but have nothing beneficial to contribute to the gene pool.

With that said, although you may not breed your dog yet, as soon as you do yes you will most definitely be considered a BYB. Why? Because only BYB (or puppymillers) do no health testing, they do not show, they do not care that they are adding to the overwhelming population of shelters.

Before you breed, you must know your facts, and you breed ONLY for the betterment of the breed, which means you must have all the necessary health screenings done AND you need to show your dog to prove that they are breeding material. If you care about your breed then you will not breed your white schnauzer, it's just that simple.

I love my dog to pieces, but he is most definitely not breeding material. No I wouldn't breed my dog just so people could have pet quality dogs because there are already PLENTY of pet quality dogs in the world. If I did breed my dog that would be a huge disservice to a breed that I so dearly love. Why on earth would I do that? It doesn't make sense to harm your breed.

As far as the culling goes, this is one of the reasons it is still done. Breeders don't want undesirable dogs to end up in the hands of people that are going to breed them and add more undesirable dogs to the world. I am not saying I agree with culling, it is very sad, but that doesn't change the reality.

Listen to these people, even if it is coming across harsh, they know what they are talking about.

OMG can you believe it a party schnauzer....WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO????
If you did your research you would also find the same information that I did. The original schnauzers did have white and produced white, it was just not desired. I have found this information in several places. I could care less what your opinion is anyways look at the kind of schnauzer you are posting on your blog. I've seen a post where you talk about lyme disease and how you forgot to give your dog their heart worm pill....you are quite a responsible dog person aren't you?? Is'nt that something you critisize a BYB for?? Not caring for them properly?

Gough's Ebony Royal Guardsman surely carried the white gene because both CH Woodhaven's Black Gough Drops and CH Dufferton Mack the Knife also carried the white gene. In approximately, 1965, 8 years after the standard had been changed that the white schnauzer began to emerge out of the black and black and silver miniature schnauzers. It was absolutely taboo to have white miniature schnauzer genes in your line. So many rumors circulated that the white miniature schnauzer's were a defect. It was assumed that they have medical problems and deafness. Breeders having white puppies were often told to drown them at birth, due to the misconception that they were a genetic defect. Fortunately, select breeders principally from the east did an excellent job of preserving the black and silver along with the white schnauzer. In the U.S.A., for 40 years the white schnauzer's origin and legacy has not been understood. The American Miniature Schnauzer Club standard describes them as undesirable and they should not be bred. To this day, we still have not found any documented facts as to this reasoning. Researching the white miniature schnauzer with the PSK reveals that they have no known congenital or lethal white gene theories. These white miniature schnauzers are not albino, they exhibit black noses, eyes and pads of their feet. They are affectionate and robust miniature schnauzers who exhibit all the qualities of their colored counterparts.

In 1957 the American Miniature Schnauzer Club voted to change the standard for the miniature schnauzer to exclude the white schnauzer from being shown in American Kennel Club shows. The American Kennel Club accepted this change in the standard, but continued to register the white miniature schnauzer. This A.K.C. registration, allows our white miniature schnauzer to be shown in all F.C.I. affliated member clubs across the globe. F.C.I. member clubs are clubs in different countries who have accepted the parent breed country standard, as their own. The American Miniature Schnauzer Club is one of the few clubs that does not accept the parent breed country standard. They prefer to have their own standard.

For what it's worth, here is my take on the whole White Schnauzer thing.

First off, it's true that the AMSC does not accept white miniature Schnauzers within the breed standard, and as a result, neither does the AKC, despite the fact that the both the German Kennel Club (which is the parent country) and The Kennel Club (UK) do. So you can show a white Miniature Schnauzer in Crufts, but not in Westminster. The AMSC says that it is sticking to the original breed standard as set forth by the original 'creators' of the Miniature Schnauzer breed, which certainly anyone can respect that stance. At the same time white has been present in the breed since it's creation, it's accepted in nearly every single FCI recognized registry with the exception of the AKC. Thus personally I can't quite say that breeding white schnauzers is straight out bad (especially if you are breeding quality schnauzers overseas), when the white factor in schnauzers has not been found to be linked to white-factor issues like deafness and blindness in this breed as it has in other breeds, any more than it has been linked to those problems in west highland white terriers.

However. As said puppy is not being shown, can't be shown in the US, has not been evaluated based on its conformation by people experienced and showing schnauzers (color notwithstanding) and almost certainly has no more than 1-2 (if that many) Ch titled dogs in it's pedigree to attest to the quality of breedings that produced this dog, I still think breeding this dog is irresponsible.

If you really are interested in starting a quality breeding program that people will respect, I suggest that you get involved in showing and learn more about what makes a quality schnauzer in conformation, so that you will be able to recognize both the good and the bad (as related to the breed standard) in your own dogs.

Breeding for conformation, temperament, and a specific color, especially a recessive-carried one, is far more difficult than breeding for excellent conformation alone, because you are narrowing down your pool of perspective dogs by so much because you dont' want any dog in your program that doesn't have the white factor gene. That limits the gene pool by a huge amount.

Ask yourself honestly... if you found out that someone you knew had a salt and pepper miniature schnauzer that had a white parent and thus you knew for sure it carried the white factor gene, would you be willing to breed to that dog purely for the reason that it had the white gene, regardless of the quality of it's conformation?

***Edited By: Minniyar on 11/13/2007 8:46:41 AM***
Reason: add

I find it ridiculous that some of you come in here being malicious to others for asking a question about breeding. For the person who said "why breed white Miniature Schnauzers because they have skin problems" and whatever other nonsense they said....I own a solid white Miniature Schnauzer male. He comes from 2 parents who are solid white.
He has NEVER had a single health or skin issue since the day we brought him home at the age of 8 wks.
He's been perfect in every way!
To answer the first persons' question, it has been our experience that your chances of having a white Miniature Schnauzer puppy out of your litter are higher if you use two parents who are solid white. The black nose has nothing to do with it. Both parents to my white male had a black nose and the entire litter was solid white.
I bred him to a salt/pepper female last year of mine and all were salt/pepper but one female was slightly lighter in color...which we kept. You didn't say what color you bred your White Schnauzer to.....but if the other one was not white, this is probably why you did not get a white puppy...just like we didn't get a white puppy.

Now for the snooty people who came in here to trash and bash this person for asking a breeding question, get the heck off of your high horse! Don't make remarks about things you have no idea what you are talking about! My white Schnauzer came from excellent bloodlines; He actually won two awards in a fun puppy show back when he was six months of age! For the life of me, I can't figure out why when someone comes into this forum to ask a question and if the word "breed" is written, people go absolutely crazy in here as though they have lost their minds! Get over yourselves and just answer the darned question!