Just a note about the comment that the AKC papers don't state "Miniature" on it but other undesirable registries do - I have Miniature Dachshunds and I have Standard Dachshunds. Their AKC papers don't state either. Just says "Dachshund". But each size is shown separately in the show ring.
Difference is that Mini Aussies are not recognized in AKC at all. Australian Shepherds are, with a breed standard, which mini's are bred out of standard to create the 'mini' part. So the breeders who sell them as AKC obviously cant show them, but still register them as a reg Australian Shepherd, then sell them as mini aussies. AKC papers in this case wouldnt mean anything.
People are like slinky's, not really good for much. But its still fun to push them down the stairs.
Actually AKC papers can mean alot, even if the dog is a mini. Like to Agility you have to be papered somehow. I have also seen a few undersized Aussies showing, and do well. It just depends on how you look at it. Not every breed started out as an AKC breed, and thank god alot of you guys are not on the board that makes that decision. I guess we wouldn't have dogs at all. I guess any of the breeds that are overseas and not in our AKC are not breed either right?
If AKC doesn't change breeds, then why is it that a breed standard would stay the same for years in the parent club before AKC, then once the breed get Recognition it changes. Maybe it is the judges that don't choose the working dog, and prefer the pretty one I dont know. I have seen this change in a lot of breeds, and most of the time I don't belive it is always for the better. Granted, I belive breeders have their hand in it also, like the bulldogs.
As human beings, I think everyone is quick to judge others. It is America and we are allowed to. This is what makes everyone different. I am happy to expect my litter, belive I am breeding a true breed, not a designer dog or mix. I also belive I am doing my best to provide them with great homes and keep them out of shelter by accepting pups back at any age if the owners lifestyle changes. I do not care to get into a breed that has been over bred, a ton of health problems, and impossible to put a health guarentee on just becuase AKC and others of you out there think that they are the only dog worthy of considering a breed. If it allowed in the Rarities, or American Rare Breed Assoc., then I consider them a breed, and probably alot healthier then most.
I am sorry if I have offended any of you, but that is how I feel. Unless someone out there can think of a good reason I shouldn't feel the way I do then try me. I think we need to worry about puppy mills and BYB breeders before everyone wants to start bashing breeders showing and do health checks on their breeding dogs.
Illusionminis, now I understand. My question was whether the mini Aussie was recognized by AKC, or CKC. The problem I would have if I tried to show a 7 pound Boston, is that it would'nt meet the breed standard; so I'd be wasting my time and money. I see that you can still compete in various classes; so I see nothing wrong in it. Good luck with your babies.
Yes and offering a lifetime health guarantee, as long as the dogs problem is fatal, but if it is crippled your are SOL, NICE.
And how does your vet determine that the hips have cleared, I mean the fact hat you write (vet) in brackets leads me to believe that the x-rays were never sent in to OFA or Penn. Your one bitch had "fair" pre-lims yet she was bred without clearing first, "fair" is not a good rating, and any good breeder I know would only bree a dog with a 'fair' to a dog with an excellent. But hey what do they know, I mean hey they breed within the standards go figure.
Ruffian you must know alot of great breeders if you assume that pups are born crippled. I have no reason to belive that any puppy would be crippled, and if so then why would I even sell it. Yea, I am such a bad person, and my guarentee is so bad. Sure as a few other breeders of your AKC breeds who give a lifetime guarentee. Most wont even cover the genetic problems that the breed has. Like a poodles slipping patella, both of which needed replaced. You think the breeder helped, nope think again. Bichons with epilepsy(I think I spelled that wrong), nope breeder doesn't care. guarentees are up. You start naming a few problems that aussies have that are not fatal. PRA is the only one that I know of, and is covered in my contract. You haven't seen my contract, nor have you contacted me about a puppy. so how do you what exactly I cover? You must have taken a look at my website, which is general. Most people looking know that, and few really care. Most people care about price, not health guarentees. You would be supprised how many people would rather pay $400 for a pup that only has a 1 year guarentee, then $600 for a lifetime, and tested dogs. My only tested dog, doesn't have (vet) by the hips, they were tested and after contacting OFA, and discussing the prelim, she is not displastic at all. There is now a boarderline. If there was any doubt that those hips were not right, she would have been considered boarderline, no fair. The fact that it was a prelim is taken into consideration, so if there were any gaps or any reason the OFA vets felt there would be a problem, she would have been put into boarderline. She was bred with an excellent, and should have great pups. You can not get me upset with your stupid accusations. Although I see it is very easy to get your panties in a bunch. I can stand behind everything I do. You don't have to like it. Heck PETA doesn't think we should even own dogs or any animal for that matter. so I guess everyone here is on there bad side.
Ruffian, my breed is prone to quite a few diseases, and conditions, and the only two that I can guarantee is CERF and Juvenile seizures. I have the parents and grand parents tested out the ying yang, but that does'nt mean that a puppy won't jump out of an adoptee's truck and end up with a nasty luxating patella. I have stated in my contract that the buyer must have their own vet give the puppy a complete examination, within 72 hours of purchase. If their vet finds anything wrong, I refund the money, and get the puppy back. I've never had to do this yet. The closest I've come to it, is with a puppy I sold last year, who at 5 months jumped off a couch, and immediately ended up with a grade 3 luxating patella. The buyer phoned me to tell me, that the other leg was slightly loose as well. I refunded their money, just because I thought it was the proper thing to do.They did'nt ask me to, and I did'nt have to, per my contract.
Now see when Tonka eneded up being epilectic (sp?) his breeder offered to pay for his meds for life, which he has never needed, offered to pay for his neuter, I declined, and offered me a new pup, again I declined. A good breeder would do nothing less IMO. But I guess when I am looking for a dog to buy I dont settle for breeders like you, I dont look for breeders who are concerned with breeding for people, they breed for themselves. They have a litter when they want a new dog, they dont offer BS guarantees or excuses for only covering fatal problems. They stand behind their dogs 100%, and these breeders may be few and far between, but I would find a different breed before settling for anything less.
Well the way I look at it, Epilepsy is fatal, my guarentee. a grade 3 slipping patella, can be fatal with out surgery, my guarentee. What was your point? I am not going to let any of my puppies suffer needlessly. I can not list every single situation in a 40page contract, that is insane and pointless. If someone has a problem with my pups, I will deal with each situation as it arrises. So far you haven't said anything that has made a point. All your examples have fit into my contract. Aussies don't have a problem with patellas, but if someone did I would listen to them and their vet. I have had plenty of people try to pull one over on me becuase their vet is their friend. I prefer not to deal with those kind of people.
WOW I better tell my boy to up and die already he was diagnosed 9 years ago with epilepsy, still no meds.
Personally breeding out of standard dogs put you on the BYB list, your BS guarantee just cemented it, perhaps Ali and Juno can come back you up, oh yes and BlueDixie sicne you both breed out of standard Aussies.
In my opinion, this thread has turned into bashing of a breeder who obviously loves her breed, and has already claimed that she has no intention of ruining the breed,and will in fact not breed them if they happen to lose their original function. Once again the people who really need the bashing are absent. I wish you all the best Illusionminis, and I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures of your new puppies.
"If there was any doubt that those hips were not right, she would have been considered boarderline, no fair"
Am I the only one confused by that statement? First of all, I have never heard of an OFA rating of "borderline". And 2nd, whether borderline OR fair, why would you breed that dog?
Also, if by preliminary, you mean you had her tested before the age of 2, why didn't you have her retested to verify the results? I have never heard of anyone testing before the age of 2, and then not retesting when the test results could actually be recorded.
The average dog is a nicer person than the average person.
I personally fail to see the point of testing if regardless of the results the dog will be bred anyway. Genetic issues are generally covered in a good breeders contract, whether it be replacment, refund, etc.
Epilepsy...a gentic defect, but not necesarrily fatal.
Luxating patella...genetic defect, not fatal, surgical repair required
Hip dysplasia..genetic defect, not fatal unless it is a crippling dysplasia in which euthanasia is its only form of relief, but in general...not fatal
Many of these issues mentioned are a defect, not fatal, such as blindness, if it caused by a genetic issue, this does not mean the dog has to die. Many dogs do well blind with caring owners.
In cases like these, I would want to see a good breeder offer to take pup back with refund, exchange pup, cover at least a percent of cost of surgery/medicatons if the owners wants to keep the pup.
But when you state that you only cover FATAL defects...it suggests the dog must die or your SOL.
***Edited By: lpn169 on 4/22/2008 2:40:12 PM*** Reason: sp
People are like slinky's, not really good for much. But its still fun to push them down the stairs.
Good luck Illusion. I hope all goes well for you and your dogs.I cant wait for some pics.I cant ramble much about the argument thats taking place because I have no clue about that breed, stanard or mini and Im not gonna research it just to say boo hoo or nana na booboo. Good luck!!!!!!!
For those of you who have never heard of Boarderline, This info was take directly off my OFA Report
Excellent-superior hip joint conformation as compared with other individuals of same breed and age
Good-well formed hip conformation as compared with other individuals of same breed and age
Fair-minor irregularities of the hip confromation as compared with other individuals of same breed and age
Boarderline--marginal hip joint conformation of indeterminate status with respect to hip dysplasia at this time(repeat study in 6 months)
Then you have mild, moderate, and severe.
I pretty much copied that word for word right off the sheet I was sent. I dont know if it is something new or what. That was why I contacted OFA and asked questions. I was informed that Fair just ment that the hips had some irrgularities but was no way dysplasic. The boarderline was for any hip x-rays that could possibly be dysplastic. I was informed she would be fine to breed as long as I choose only an excellent to breed her to. Which I did. I only went by what I was told by those at OFA. The breed club which I use (you can look on my website) clearly states in the code of ethics that a fair-excellent rating on hips for fine for breeding. I hear of people in this breed consistanly(sorry for bad spelling) breeding dog a year old becuase of penn hip ratings. I am not doing that. Years ago, everyone I knew would breed on the 3rd heat which in aussies was typically around 18months. That is what I did. I just continued with the information some new, and some old that I have learned over the years. I am sorry if some of you are not OK with it.
And for those who didn't like my contract, the wording has been changed to Crippling or handicapping gentic defects. Let this be a lesson to those who complain, but never bother to give ideas. This idea for better wording was emailed to me. I liked it, so I will be changing it.
Ruffian--this is for you mostly. Nasty people just *****, nice people give sugestions. You can complain all you want, and most people that I have heard from privatly don't care or pay attention to you. Try making suggestions in your complaining, some people might just listen!!! Not everyone is perfect, including you. So my guess is you are just a hatefull person who just tries to pull everyone else down.
To those who privatly spoke to me, thanks for your suggestions and kind words. I have tried to make the changes you all have suggested. If I am still missing something, kindly let me know.
* removed un-needed word
***Edited By: lpn169 on 4/24/2008 12:23:23 AM*** Reason: Removed curse
We have "breeders" come on here all the time and defend their poor breeding practices. From one bragging about a "very merry christmas" because of the 30 pups she had to sell at that time, another who breeds the way she does "because that is how everyone else does it" why test?? The one who hides that she is breeding mutts from those who she shows her purebred dogs against. One who breeds several litters a year, and all want us to "cut them some slack" because what they are doing is fine as far as they are concerned. Well I am sorry that it offends you that while hundreds of thousands of dogs die every year in shelters across the continent there is no need to breed unless youa re breeding some of the best. All these breeders had reasons that it is ok for them to cut corners, very much like the BS you are trying to shovel out, I didnt let them feed it to me I sure as hell am not going to take it from you.
If you are comfortable in your breeding practices then whoopdy friggen doo, but dont come on an open forum and get all pissy because everyone isnt running to kiss your butt over you poor breeding practices.