We have an 8 year old terrier mix, Rascal, who weighs about 30 pounds, a 6 y/o black lab, Pickens, and a 6 m/o catahoula, Quigley. Our problem is the terrier. He attacks either of his brothers with or without provocation. He's not done any serious damage to either of them yet, but it's really only a matter of time. Rascal is TOUGH. We used to have a 90 pound aussie-mix, well, Rascal would beat him and Pickens up at the same time. Anyone have any suggestions? Almost forgot to mention the fact that 98% of the time, all our boys get along very well. It's the other 2% that's the problem. I really afraid that someone is going to be injured!
***Edited By: facetious on 6/2/2008 3:47:16 PM*** Reason: Addition to post
Have you had Rascal in doggy classes? It sounds like he is trying to be dominate.You have to intervien and let him know he is wrong.Does this happen when you are giving one or more of the dogs any attention?
Yes, Rascal has been in classes (he did well LOL) It's just completely random. Sometimes, you can tell what sets him off, ie someone invading his space, but other times, he just attacks out of the blue. Occasionally, when he is very angry, he will even stalk his 'victim'. If we have him do something he doesn't want to do, he will often lash out at the closest dog available. He listens to whatever commands you give him, and complies, but then takes it out on whoever (canine)that he can. Also, in addition to the agression, I should probably add in his submission. He will do the 'mouth licking' thing to his brothers, he will show his belly to them also, sometimes. It's almost as if he's 2 different dogs...
Well, that's pretty weird, my dogs lick their lips too, right about when they jump on another dog. It's a warning sign that has saved more than one fight around here. Are you sure your dog is not part Boston Terrier? Even though they are not a terrier in the true sense of the word they act like one, and you're right, sometimes you can't figure out what sets them off. The only thing I can think of, other than a medical problem, is just dominance, and at his age it's hard to stop. My dogs will also jump in if there are 2 other dogs fighting, and yet they are as well trained as they could be. I had an incident yesterday, the first one in a very long time. My son was throwing a toy for 4 of them, in the yard, and one body checked the other. The body checked boy did'nt like that so he turned on the other dog, and knocked him over. As soon as he did that, one of my studs ran like hell and jumped in, before my son could get him. Now I thought I had stopped that, apparently not. I would never leave your 3 dogs at home unless they are seperated. Just keep on reinforcing that he can't beat the crap out of his brothers, and put him down, use your weight if you have to, and say a couple of key words, mine were lame, 'NO FIGHTS'. Seperate them, alternately, one in the crate, one out. If you stay on it the fights will lessen, but I'm really not sure what works forever. My next move is a shock collar, but I don't think it will work, we'll see.
Ok I am getting the feeling that Rascal is smaller then the other two, Hes submissive, and he turns on the other two occasionally. How do you feed the dogs? When you give out treats who gets what first, what about attention? Lip licking is a sign of stress, nervousness basically being scared. I am going to say that this dog is somewhat nervous of the other dogs,and at the same time you may be sending mixed signals about whos first, second and third in line of rank. Never use a roll over, or a pushing down type of techniques with an allready nervous dog, that will certanly boost the stress of the situation around the other dogs, only confirming that there is truley a need to be nervous. Are you mostly there when Rascal goes at them. Let me know......
When I look up into the sky, I think to myself, Wheres the ceiling?
Sorry...I wasn't really clear with the licking thing. LOL I mean that he will lick the mouths of his brothers...like the puppy wanting food type thing? He's so strange!! We honestly have no idea what sort of dog he is. He looks like a wirehaired beagle-y guy LOL He was a rescue that was quite abused by people...I've had him for almost 6 years now. The mixed signals are highly possible. We try to show equal attention and equal everything, but it's a bit difficult with 3, especially since one is a pup that needs guidence. Of course, it doesn't matter how 'fair' everything is, someone will always want more treats, petting, whatever. Blah!
Ok then try this, Have Rascal in the room with you, and every time one of the other dogs come into the room, have an extra special treat for rascal. We can make a good assocaition between treats and the presents of the other dogs. If in the beginning you still get some fights, walk away. I also wanted to mention that one of your other dogs is starting to mature, so this is a bit of a threat as well. But if you can change the association of the presents of the other dogs, makeing them more of an asset to him, he may relax and want them to be around. I honestly don't think Rascal is in charge, he really just has some issues, do not punish him in any way, like yelling or hitting.
When I look up into the sky, I think to myself, Wheres the ceiling?
Oh he definately has issues. He always wants to be with the others...sleeping with them, playing, or whatever...until, of course, he wants them dead. *sighs The 'punishment' we give him is a time out. So he can cool off. Otherwise, he's like a loaded weapon until he calms down. We're not into hitting, and we DO yell a bit, to get him off of whoever he's attacking.
I totally disagree about the lip licking being a sign of fright. These dogs are not frightened of each other, or a dog 4 times their size. Laying a dog down tells him he's not the boss, you are, and it's worked for me. You're not hurting them, and the way they fight is to pin the other dog with their chest, to put him in a submissive position.
First, let me start off by saying that I am NOT a dog trainer, but I do have personal experience. Now that being said, let me continue to express my thoughts, and await an attack...
"I honestly don't think Rascal is in charge, he really just has some issues, do not punish him in any way, like yelling or hitting."
I whole heartly disagree with this statement. If he is doing something that is not allowed or a "no-no", then by not correcting him in any way is like saying it's ok. It's not. At 30 lbs, I believe that he is plenty big enough to be put in his place and corrected by you and/or your husband only[/b], not the other dogs. I also think that his age is a HUGE factor! He is older, set in his ways, and along come these other dogs into "his" home. He doesn't like it. They are younger, stronger, and he feels threatened by it. We had an Australian Shepard who was the best dog in her prime. When she started getting up there in age, she got "grumpier" so to say. The younger dogs would basically annoy her by wanting to play & jumping around, licking her lips, etc..and she would snap at them. Immediately we would correct her for it. She knew it was a no-no & would put her head down right away, and that was all that was needed. She NEVER attacked any dog, cat, or person because she KNEW better.
Alot of potential fights can be stopped simply by reading their body language. If you know your dogs well enough, you can spot a problem, and fix it right then. The lip licking he's doing reminds me of my dogs when they are aggitated and about ready to attack. That is a warning sign.
I own 4 American Pit Bull Terriers, 1 Rottweiler, and a little "pure bred mutt" (jack russell, etc...) We have had a few scrapes, and 1 fight. When the fight happened, the dogs were seperated, but one got too close to the others gate and was pulled in by her head. We had them apart in less then 2 minutes. The others were starting of fights, if that makes sense. We stop our dogs by using a breaking stick first of all, and second on the little tantrums, we DO put them down. My husband has layed on them before to hold them while I put the other in a kennel. They are not being hurt by any means, they know they did a no-no, and never resist or even turn on him. Alot of fights or spats are due to food. Some of our dogs we can feed together, other we can't. They can all eat around the cats (hell, they share with the cats) my kids can pull the food out of their mouths, etc..
Some people think of their pets as their kids. This is true in sooo many ways. If you think about it, an older child will act out when their sibling is born. Just nature. They are no longer the center of attention so to speak, and are not happy about it.
Now our dogs ARE diciplined!! They know what is ok, and what isn't. Just as a child would. Dicipline is not a bad thing, in fact it's a good thing. Everyone and everything should know right from wrong...
I agree Jackie, this dog is much older than the other 2, and simply does not want to share his humans. I still think that separating them for a while would work wonders. You could take Rascal for a big walk while the puppy stays at home with Dad, and his brother, then puppy could have a small kennel break, and the other guy separated from Rascal by a baby gate. Perhaps his nose is out of joint because he was introduced at your house, was he? That's what I would do, anyway, a constant round of separation until he settles down. Maybe some help from a behaviourist would'nt hurt either. Good luck.
I think it would be a good idea for you all to start researching dog behavior in general. Lip licking is a sign of stress/ uneasyness, if its after eating then probly not. Even people tend to get dry mouthed and try to lick their lips when they are stressed. Alpha rolls are purely myth, started by people who truely do not understand the the workings of a pack of dogs/wolves. Alpha rolls are pure bullying, and nothing more. The dog is stressed about something, it could be over a valued item, you don't solve it by pushing the animal down. I specialize in Puppy Kindergarten and design prevention type training to minimize these problems. I've done courses, attended lectures and work shops, plus worked with animals most of my life. Why do people need to be so angry when it comes to the natural behaviors of dogs, this is why we have so many problems with them in the first place, because they are so miss handled. The dogs brain isn't much more then the mentallity of a two year old child, would a child of that age understand why an adult is abuseing them out of fustration, or anger, I don't think so.
When I look up into the sky, I think to myself, Wheres the ceiling?
So you're a dog breeder are you, Sue? You've seen the behaviour of one breed for 20 years. You really think we bully our dogs... I'd like you to see how my dogs are treated and I'd like to see you stop agressive behaviour in my dogs. Your first mistake is believing they have the brain of a two year old. Why then can I tell one dog to bring me a certain toy, the colour, and the type? If my dogs hear a noise outside, and all perk up their ears, I just say nobody's here, and they all lie down.The final example would be hiding a toy, very quickly; so they can't see where I put it. They will find it. In case you know anything about children, it's called object permanence. A 2 year old can be distracted with something else, easily. A dog can't. If you think we hurt our dogs, you are sadly mistaken. We all love our dogs as much as anything, because they are part of the family. The Alpha roll works for us...you prove to me it's a myth, because I've seen it work.
Sue,,Did I in any way say that you needed to do some research or that you were wrong? No, I did not. I simply stated my opinions and experience. In fact, I started off by saying that I am not a trainer...so, that in mind, I took your advice and did some reading..
From the above link: "Any wolf can become an alpha. However, to do so, it must find an unoccupied territory and a member of the opposite sex with which to mate. Or, more rarely, it moves into a pack with a missing alpha and takes its place, or perhaps kills another alpha and usurps its mate."
Alpha has also been refered to as "heirarchy".
To the OP,,,I sincerely hope everything works out with you and your clan.
Tips To Prevent Unnecessary and Unfortunate Dog Bites All dogs can bite. Even if you think, “Not my dog!” it could happen.
According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, every year 800,000 Americans seek medical attention for dog bites. Of those, more than half are children. There are campaigns like National Dog Bite Prevention Week, which occurs the third week of May, that help raise awareness and educate the public, but Pet Parents and those who may have contact with a dog must be diligent year-round.
Here are some tips to help prevent unneccessary and unfortunate bites:
- Dogs do not like hugging and kissing. Have you seen those pictures of the children hugging the dogs with the caption that reads “Who looks happier?” I’ll give you a hint… it’s not the dog.
- Do not put your face near the dog’s face. Nobody likes someone right in their face. Dogs are no different.
- Teach your children - and remind yourself - not to bother a busy dog. If the dog is busy (eating, sleeping, in the crate, playing with a toy, etc.) do not startle him. Just like some people, many dogs do not take kindly to being startled or interrupted. Call him to you or let him know you’re approaching.
- Do not put your dog in a situation he can’t handle. You are responsible for your dog’s behavior. Forcing your dog to tolerate things he is unprepared for is stressful. Stress leads to unpredictable behavior.
- Take a positive reinforcement training class. Teaching your dog what is expected of him, without using aversives or harsh corrections, will lead to a calm, confident dog.
- Understand your dog has bad days just like everybody else. There are times when your dog will have less tolerance than usual. Perhaps he’s hot, tired, in pain, or just getting older. Be patient with him.
- Not all dogs like to be petted. Hard to believe? Remember how old Aunt Edna used to pinch your cheeks every Christmas and croon, “My how you’ve grown”? Nobody ever liked that! Yet, it is how many dogs view petting. Your own dog may tolerate you doing offensive things like hugging and kissing; however, he may not want a stranger touching him. Some days he may not even want you to touch him!
- When a dog comes up to smell you, that is not an invitation to pet him. He is gaining information about you, so wait to see if he hangs around for petting or not.
- Be aware of the dog’s body language. Dogs give many warnings before they even begin to growl or snarl. Tense muscles, lip licking, yawning, turning the head away, moving away, freezing, and being able to see the whites of the eyes are just some of the signs that a dog is NOT comfortable.
- Approach with caution or not at all! Educating yourself and your children on the dog’s warning signs will drastically reduce the chances of a bite.
Debbie McKnight is an accredited PetSmart trainer in Hurst, Texas
b][The previous post stated all the signs that I recognize as a huge scrap about to ensue. It comes from one of my neutered dogs, and is aimed at one of the studs. Yesterday's small scrap was the stud diving into another small conflict with 2 neutered dogs. The stud went into his crate, and the other 1 in the bedroom, the third in his crate. I left them there for 15 minutes, and when they got out, both the stud and the one neutered male climbed up, to see if they were still bad, and wanted to sit on my knee. Do you think if they were afraid of me they'd be trying to get up on my knee? They know they're not supposed to fight, but they're canines. I seriously believe in a pack of dogs, fighting starts from dominance. That's what I've experienced. Our job,as responsible owners is to stay at the top of the hierarchy, no matter what the dog thinks. There doesn't need to be an ounce of cruelty involved in the correction of this. There are as many theories about dog training as there are about raising human babies, which is another whole story. Has anyone noticed the lack of discipline in the schools since the strap, or the cane was taken away? Some kids have no more respect for the teachers and principal, than a stranger walking down the street.
I tend to notice Pen just that you seem very angry, I'm not judgeing, but if there is more to learn out there, shouldn't you learn as much as you can to improve the lives of your dogs and the off spring you are breeding. Breeding animals is a big responsibility, its not as simple as finding two nice looking dogs. Maternal imprinting is very important. You don't need to breed any one type of breed to understand behavior. In general all dogs have very simular behavior. Breed just tends to exaggerate a few characteristics. The techniques of the alpha roll are a myth, they don't work becasue your always useing them......Continuously, the dog will never know why your doing it.?? Imagine giveing that same advise to someone whos adopted a big Rottweiler, and they have little experience with dogs....And the dog is say possibly been abused and bullied by the previous owner. Theres a good chance this new owner is in for a bite. And the dog is not to blame, hes purely trying to protect himself. Instilling fear is not training, its fear, its bullying and not all dogs react the same. The first rule of behavioral work is to not make the situation worse. The Mentality of a child changes as it gets older, have you ever had a baby grow up around you, you can see the changes in the child as they get older, its like the wires are fuseing together and theres this new person every other day. Dogs never get past a stage, so 2-3.5 years is pretty much it. And if we really watch they act just like them Ever see a toddler have a tempertantrum? Ever see a dog on the end of a leash getting upset by what he can't get to becasue of his leash? Thats what makes dogs so cool, they will never show jelousy, spiteful behavior or hate, even children do not develope these emotions till 3.5 and up, its the next stage that makes us different then animals. The toy thing you mentioned is simple, dog use associations, they don't understand human language, but can use words and objects and make those associations.
When I look up into the sky, I think to myself, Wheres the ceiling?
I can't be angry, I just finished an anger management course, and passed with flying colours. As for the rest of your post Sue, I think it's quite funny,especially the part about seeing a small child having a temper tantrum. Nowhere did I say I use the abominable alpha roll 'continuously', and I'd have to be certifiable to advise someone with a rescued Rottie to roll him. You have assumed a lot in your post, with very little factual information to impart. What else can I say?
Ok,,I'm sorry, I have read & re-read your post Sue, and there are some things that I would like to comment on.
First, "The techniques of the alpha roll are a myth, they don't work becasue your always useing them......Continuously, the dog will never know why your doing it.??" I believe I gave proof that the alpha dog/roll whichever, is not a myth. Also, I don't recall where Pen stated that she uses the technique continuously.
Second, "Imagine giveing that same advise to someone whos adopted a big Rottweiler, and they have little experience with dogs....And the dog is say possibly been abused and bullied by the previous owner." I would hope that first, the rescue/adoption group informed the new owner of this particular dog's past & history before adopting him out. And,,anyone in their right mind should know better than to try something of this sort, without knowing the animal, that would just be idiotic.
Third, "Ever see a dog on the end of a leash getting upset by what he can't get to becasue of his leash? Thats what makes dogs so cool, they will never show jelousy, spiteful behavior or hate,,," I'm sorry, but aren't you contradicting yourself here? If they are getting upset on a leash like you say, wouldn't that in a way be considered spiteful behavior, or throwing a tantrum / fit?
Fourth, "..even children do not develope these emotions till 3.5 and up, its the next stage that makes us different then animals." I'm sorry, but do you have any kids? I happen to have 2 "drape apes" both girls, one is 14 & the other is 6. My kids have always shown emotions,,and WAY before 3.5 years of age. Heard of the "terrible twos"?
Fifth, "Thats what makes dogs so cool, they will never show jelousy.." Yah,,,sure. Tell my dogs that then because apparently they don't know it. As well as my parents dogs, friends dogs.. If one is getting lovin' and the other sees, they come running from across the room, boot the other out of the way, and take their place. Not in a mean or aggressive manner, they just wedge their way in. Heck, they have even wedged between my husband and I at times.
And last, I am by no means trying to be rude. Where did you get your license or degree in animal behavior?