I just dont get where I have told anybody they are wrong, I have my belief and simply told you what it was. If you thought I was insinuating something you thought wrong. I havent tried to prove anyone wrong. Everyones convictions are between them and who ever they take them up with. The OP said she liked to know what everyone else believes. I stated it and some of you have issues with my religion. I dont have issues with what you believe. I have not judged anyone or condemned anyone. I have not forced my religion on anyone here, if I have please quote it for me. I have repeatedly stated it is up to you. Your decision is not mine to make. I believe what I do, if someone asks, I deliver. Take it for what it is and if you dont like it, fine, but keep accusing me of things I havent done I will naturally defend my self. You have made your own insinuation that you your self is damned without accepting my religion, I never said that. You made the insinuation your self. I believe there are probably alot of people from other religions that will make it to heaven. I chose this path, I think it is the path for ME. My origional post simply put how my religion thinks and works, you are the one who had the issue with it, I didnt have an issue with yours. I am sorry you have something against me, I am not going to change because you dont like me. None of this is written to try and convert you, it is simply to defend my right to practice any religion I see fit.

Tater, Tater, Tater...its been pointed out to you repeatedly by myself and others, what I, and we, take issue with is your arrogant statement regarding "lost souls". Its that "holier than thou" attitude, the upturned nose, that's what turns me off. I don't think it requires further explanation. Everyone else was able to respond with what their beliefs are without insulting others. You were the only one that came on claiming to be the chosen one, since all others, according to your religion, are lost souls. You do have the right to believe what works for you, no one has asked you to change your belief system. I do feel your insulting comment was unnecessary. I honestly don't believe that you don't think your comment was insulting.

It would help if you read the whole posts. My first response to you started with me saying that I am not attacking you personally, but my comments are directed at that belief, that one religion is superior to others, be it Christianity, Buddhism, Wickan, or Atheist. I have friends from many walks of life, with many different spiritual beliefs, it only seems to be Christianity that feel themselves to be superior, at least they are more vocal about it. That's been my experience anyway.

To some self-professed "non-believers", "me thinks thou doth protest too much". You claim to be happy but you come across as angry, even at times hateful (including towards your own parents for their beliefs) & crude, & it's been my experience that angry, defensive, hateful, & crude folks generally aren't happy folks.

Perhaps "accusing" someone of a religious nature of coming across as "holier than thou" is a bad choice of words considering it's you, yourself, who has proudly proclaimed you reject all things "holy". Uh, does that not indeed make someone who is deeply religious, well, uh, yeah, in fact, "holier than thou"?

While "tatersmom" & I do not share the same belief system I found nothing offensive or "insulting" in her posts & I could clearly see where, initially, she was just stating her beliefs (which was the point of the original post), & it was she who was "attacked" for doing so. It was only in responding to the unwarranted hateful attacks that she, too, became "defensive" but it appears rightfully so ("And if there is a god [sic], then I pretty much just think he's [sic] a jerk." - HeatherFeather - now really, who's being deliberately insulting here?).

While it's tragically true that many injustices & wars have been waged in the name of "religion", I have found "religion" to be used more as an "excuse", a feeble attempt to give a "noble cause" for what always seems to boil down to nothing more than a quest for power & domination over others, neither of which, to me, are "religious" in nature.

I can only assume "some" of the posters who responded angrily to "tatersmom" are either very young or very immature & I suspect mightily that when or if you ever have children of your own you will see the wisdom in "judging" others, like your children's friends for instance - IF you don't already "judge" others when choosing your own friends of course. You'll also know the pain of a parent who perhaps watches their child choose the "wrong path"; a path that your own life experiences has proven does not lead to happiness.

As an aside, some of us still take offense at words that never use to be used in "polite society", such as "pisses", "ass", yeah, even "butt". I realize I'm an old fogy (pushing 60), but my loving hubby & I just celebrated our 39th anniversary & we have a terrific son & adored daughter-in-law so I'm not only a "Lucky Lady", I happen to be a very, very happy & very, very BLESSED "Lucky Lady" (yeah, thanks be to God).

***Edited By: Lucky Lady on 7/8/2008 4:45:41 AM***
Reason: *

I have a strong dislike of any religion that is "Male" dominated. It took me many years to realize that I am not inferior to a man. On an idividual basis a man may be stronger or more intelligent than I am ,but I do not accept that "Men" are more capable than women. I think the sexes are equal and should treat each other as such. Most religions were written by men and lean toward the man being superior to the woman. I refuse to accept that point of view. I have read the Bible from beginning to end many times and have studied the teachings of several religions. I do think each of us has a soul, and I believe in good and evil.I respect Jesus, Ghandi, Confucious and any other teacher who taught by living their beliefs, but I would not worship any one of them.Anyone who kills or promotes the killing of those who do not practice the same religion is not worthy of respect and is guilty of continuing the senseless hate and wars that have been such an awful part of human existance.

I believe every person has a right to their own choices in religion. Of course you can expect people to convert you, i mean thats just a given because they believe that their religion is best for everyone :p.
I believe there is a higher power, but i do not believe in Christ or any other type of God for that matter. But it can be a little tense when people start saying "oh you should go to church, why dont you come" so forth so forth. I respect their choice of religion, and i believe they should respect mine.
Religion is probaly one of the most controversial topics of today. So i am guessing we will not come to an agreement for this topic hahah, but in my opinion; everyone has the ability to choose for themself.

i say, "do whatever you want!" seriously, I am Catholic, but yes I use birth control and lived with my husband before we were married, blah bblah... I have some atheist friends and we get along great. I love to hear what they have to say. I love to hear about other peoples beliefs as well. I go to a Catholic church because our pastor is wonderfull and very understanding and openly admits there are some things that are not that wonderful about the church. I think if people just are open to new ideas and can be understanding it doesn't matter what church, or lack thereof, we attend.

I would agree with Juno, Drogheda, and Heatherfeather.
To Pinkygirl, I would say that the Catholics are Christian, which just means that they all believe in, and follow the teachings of Christ. The Protestant church, that she is confusing with 'Christian' broke away from the Catholic church about 500 or so years go. The protestants took the same Bible, and broke away into the many different protestant churches that we see today. Each of these denominations have their own beliefs and doctrine which make them unique. Catholicism is a huge Christian denomination, having the most followers. Therefore Catholics are Christians, though the Catholic doctrine is different in certain ways to other Christian doctrines.

You know what that is exactly what I've been trying to tell people, but then everyone gets into a fight with me about it and i just consider it to be 2 different religions i practice.

Dear Lucky Woman, yes, in comparison, I am MUCH younger than you! You've been around twice as long as me, and I thought I was old! But, perhaps its time for some eyeglasses to assist you in reading? I am not hateful, crude, rude or whatever else you called me, and especially not towards my parents. What's that verse about removing the plank from your own eye before pointing out the speck in someone elses? Perhaps one should reflect on that, as your post was by far the ugliest post in this thread.

Now, back to your accusations. I happen to have an awesome relationship with my mom, and a pretty good relationship with my dad. They have their beliefs, and I don't agree with them. I'm fine with that, I don't try to make them change, as they are content and find hope in their beliefs. Its part of who they are, and I don't wish them to change one bit. Since my whole family is religious, the topic comes up at pretty much every family gathering. Rather than argue with their beliefs or harbor ill thoughts, I take that conversation as my cue to clear the table and do the dishes. It is annoying when they start bugging me that I "need" to go to church, I "need" to find a good Christian man, I "need" to pray or read the bible. Do I hate them for it? No. When they get on me about it, I respond politely that I do not hold the same beliefs as they do, and I wish they would respect that, as I respect their beliefs. I don't find that hateful, do you? As for my kids, they won't have restrictions on religion, unless they want to go to a mormon church, I will not allow that as long as they live in my house.

I have not stated that I "reject" all things holy, I have simply found that I don't need a religion to define my being or to be content with who I am. This boils down to...I just don't care if there is a god [no capitalization intentional], gods, whether god is a man or a woman, or a fat bald man...it doesn't impact my day to day life. Some people can't talk about the weather without mentioning god. Thats fine, but my day to day life does not include god or religion. That's what works for ME. Am I right or wrong? NO ONE knows. Am I bitter or angry? Only if you force me to go to Walmart, or piss (oh wait, am I supposed to say "pee-pee" so as to not offend the elderly?) me off in a parking lot. Otherwise, I am pleasant to be around. I don't judge others, I don't look down my nose at others, like Cooper suggested...to each their own. As long as it doesn't effect me, I don't let it. Your comparison of Tater and her lost soul judgments, and judging who my kids can hang out with is pretty much invalid. I don't let some people touch my dogs, there are many people I don't trust, a few people I absolutely hate...this is based on my better judgment of their character and my responsibility to protect myself and my dogs, however has nothing to do with their souls. Again, I have not attacked Tater personally. Perhaps reading glasses might do you both some good, as you have both ignored my statement that my beef was with religion, not the person spouting off the beliefs.

Lastly, have you heard what happens when you "assume" things?

I believe there is a divine force. Now, this is just my personal belief. I believe that force is beyond my comphension. I do not try to define or explain it. I also believe it's very personal. In a manner that every single one of you has the right to choose your conception of that power. even if it is that you do not believe it exists. This is an issue that should not be promoted, God does not need to be sold, promoted, or his message carried. He will deliver it. I find it to be extremely arrogant when people think that the message will not find people without people pushing it. I found my belief not because someone "sold" me on the idea. I found it by attraction. I was not always someone who believed there was a divine source. Through my life I witnessed undeniable miracles of it.

The best way I have found to "spread" the message is not by peddling it but by being of service to my bothers and sisters. People seem to be much more receptive to acts of kindness and generosity than being self righteous and pushing it on them.

God is better found by attraction, rather than promotion.

And again, I could be totally wrong. because I am human. But I am sure god will reveal more and more to me.


I also believe thier is huge difference between being religious, and being spiritual. You can still be religous and never follow a single teaching of your chosen religion. But you can never go to church and be a spiritually enlightened idividual.

Religious is just the belief of religion. being spiritual is following the teachings.

religion is are thoughts and beliefs. Spirituality is the action you take.

HF, I'll let your "eloquent" posts speak for themselves:

"My parents are devout Christians, and refuse to accept that I just might possibly be happy without being one. Their answer to everything is prayer, and Jesus, and 'well honey, God must have other plans for you'. It really pisses me off." ~ HeatherFeather

"I'm not hateful, crude, rude or whatever else you called me, and especially not towards my parents." ~ HeatherFeather

"I don't judge others..." ~ HeatherFeather

"I don't let some people touch my dogs, there are many people I don't trust, a few people I absolutely hate...this is based on my better judgment of their character...." ~ HeatherFeather (Emphasis added ~ LL)

"And if there is a god then I pretty much just think he's a jerk." ~ HeatherFeather

"Everyone else was able to respond with what their beliefs are without insulting others." ~ HeatherFeather

...and, saving the best for last:

"Am I angry or bitter?" ~ HeatherFeather (Well, the answer to that question is certainly painfully obvious. ~ LL)

"Otherwise, I'm pleasant to be around." ~ HeatherFeather

Thanks for clearing up one thing; yes, I'm sorry, I see I was way off base by suspecting you might be "very young" - but right on the money when speculating you might be "very immature". "Pee-pee", good grief, ah yes, there's another "lovely" word & the realization that you can't see that speaks volumes.

P.S.: Amen Gunny...

***Edited By: Lucky Lady on 7/9/2008 1:18:46 AM***
Reason: *

Ah yes, again LuckyLady, again, you have proven that you either need glasses or are just plain ignorant. You have chosen to read what you want, but left out the parts in between. And I'm the one that's immature? Maybe senility is setting in a little early, cuz my grandparents aren't that lame! I believe I have explained myself fully, yet you only read, or at least only quote, part of it to try and prove what you want....kinda like folks do with the bible, pick bits and pieces to say what they want. And who's attacking who here? Didn't your parents ever teach you to be kind to those who are younger than you?

Oh, does that make me immature? If you'd like to continue your idiocy and immature personal attacks, feel free to PM me...this is getting fun!

I'll pray for you!

PS. I agree, nice post Gunny.

***Edited By: scout1 on 7/11/2008 7:40:25 AM***
Reason: deleted uncalled for comments.

Actually my parents taught me to respect everyone (unless they prove to be unworthy of respect),
While you may not "know too many people who would put up with such a miserable old bitch in real life" everyone in your circle obviously knows all too well how to put up with a miserable, angry, very, very bitter woman such as yourself. Your own parents must be so proud of you. My deepest sympathies - to them.

***Edited By: scout1 on 7/11/2008 7:43:18 AM***
Reason: more uncalled for comments.

Yes, as a matter of fact they are! They tell me that all the time. We need not go into why...but I can tell you, my only accomplishments in life haven't been a "loving" husband and "darling" little boy. If you're content with that then bless your heart...I personally wanted more out of life.

I am curious though, since you insist that I am very, very bitter, mentally deficient, and angry, among other things (whilst I sit here with a smile on my face)...why is it that you, oh righteous one, came on here JUST to attack me? The thread was not "What do you think of Heather?" The OP asked for our individual beliefs, religion wise. I answered that question. Several other people, including your little buddy Tate, came on here and answered the question. YOU came on here, failed to acknowledge the original question, but instead just choose to hurl personal attacks on me. I don't even think I've ever talked to you before, but you have some personal vendetta against me. Yet, you call me bitter and angry? I hear a lot about bitter old hags, and actually see them every time I take the 70 bus into downtown. You don't hear too much about a "bitter young 30 year old with a smile on her face".

You then go on to pull fragments of my statements and not fully read what I even say, trying to make a false point. Does your super-magnifying glass only show half the computer screen or something? Is that why you couldn't read my posts in their entirety that would disprove your point? Or do you choose to ignore and go with the "ignorance is bliss" thing? You not only ignore the OP's question, you dodge all of mine. You try to make yourself look smart by adding "[sic]" to my words....yet your little "sic" is wrong. A little lesson in English lady, when referring to a non-specific god, or gods, the word is not capitalized. However, when referring to a specific god, such as Buddha, Zeus, or Shiva, then it is capitalized, just as a proper name would be. Its okay, you can go change it. Go on! Yet, you call me "mentally deficient"? I don't think I could have gotten through grad school with a 3.8 gpa if I were mentally deficient. But, I digress. This argument is pointless. I'm just laughing and you struggle with reading comprehension. I'm taking my angry, bitter, crude, but happy ass to bed!

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa56/LilMissLis/yourignorance.jpg

Whew, thank you HeatherFeather, I rest my case.

Heather, don't let her get to you. She is proving herself to be self rightous and pushy. Apparently if you don't share her beliefs you are "very young or very immature." how is that respectful? There are many good people in this world who aren't christian and many christians who do nothing but talk.

Great post Gunny! I wish more people thought that way. If I am meant to have a deaper relationship with God it will happen, but there is no point in just going through the motions.

Religion and popcorn should go together. lol Seriously though, it really should not be a debate at all. Its a personal preference, just like what clothes we like or what foods we prefer. If you want to believe in God ? Then believe. If you dont want to believe in God ? dont believe. Easy as that. I have also been shown things that have confirmed my belief in God.
My hubby passed away new years day. I have been so distraught over his death. I needed a sign that he is okay wherever he is. I went to bed the other night and i dreamt i was in a plush green field . All i could see were hills and green grass, but someone was sitting on one of the hills. I was walking and walking barefoot through the fields and did not seem to be actually moving. But then suddenly i was next to the person and they were looking away. When they turned to look at me, it was Quinn and he said " Its beautiful here ". That was it. I felt such a peace come over me. When i got out of bed the next morning, i felt something stuck between my toes and it was fresh green grass. I hadnt been outside !
I believe that God took me to Quinn so that i could know that he was okay, and go on with my life instead of drowning in it. You all can believe what you want, but i believe what i know and i know there is a God and i know that when i am in my deepest pain, he is there to help me through it.

There are two and ONLY two purposes behind a discussion of religion and/or religious beliefs

1) To share and learn about differing beliefs expanding our understanding and respect of one another

OR

2) To proselytize and condemn.

I've kept a close eye on this thread, wasn't sure it should have remained from the get go because no matter what, this combination of individuals never can fall into the 1st category. It's always the latter of the 2.

We can't seem to agree to disagree without name calling and insults.

Because this topic is going to go nowhere but further awry, I am locking it, something instinct told me to do at the outset.