Natural selection is NOT hybrid vigor, as most true hybrid's, usually males, are sterile, it is pretty fare from natural.
I agree that Pariah type dogs, the medium sized, short hair feral dogs are probably very healthy, but that has nothing to do with hybridism that is 100% natural selection. Which is what man stopped when they started to mold that dog into the shapes and sizes we see today, but crossing in different breeds is not going to help make them healthier, at least not as much as some think, since many issues overlap in the breeds. Health testing and responsible breeding practices are what need to be done to protect the breeds we already have.
As for the way many countries view dogs who really cares? Personally I would rather someone value the companionship of their pet enough to care for it rather than just dumping it, mind you it doesnt really surprise me that you of all people would support that way of thinking, how are the christmas litters lining up this year, oh ya you had to get a real job because the people there dont pay for dogs, how sad for you huh? Not being able to live off the wombs off your "pets".
Did not say anything about natural selection. There is nothing “natural” about breeding dogs. I said “survival of the fittest”, which does not have to be natural. Most of the problems we see today are the direct and indirect result of human intervention. When that involvement is reduced and the weaker defective dogs are not kept around at any cost, what you got left with is a pretty healthy and relatively defect free dog population. That applies to purebreds and mutts alike. I suppose the “responsible breeders” are doing what they can, but they are not the real problem. The problem starts when those not so healthy dogs are kept alive just so their owner and breeders can have a clear conscious, or just so they can recoup their expanse breeding it or make a profit on it. When you take money out of the equation, most people have no reason to breed, and the oops liters can be dealt with one way or another. Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make in the first place. Money is the root of all the evil. As long as people are willing to pay, there will be someone who will be selling.
You may not care what happens outside the USA. But that is part of the problem. The (Americans) general attitude toward pets is what perpetuating the problem. Why do you think breeders are importing dogs from other countries? Some of the US lines are so messed up, that they are trying to undo some of the damage by injecting some new healthy genes in to the mix or bypassing it altogether. It is really sad when you think about it.
And in case you were not paying attention, I am retired. That means no more work of any kind for me. I may be bored as hell, but as far as money, I am set for life. So no more “Christmas pups” for me. I can see it is a tough concept for you to grasp, but I guess it is to be expected from someone who lives in a …. Never mind, I will not get dragged down to your level. I did explore the option of continuing to breed on a much smaller scale just for a “hobby”. Thought about doing something I know and love to keep me occupied. But that bubble burst pretty quickly when I realized the mentality here. There is a high demand for those tiny toy breeds, but I can’t stand them. I rather live in eternal boredom then to mess with those little overgrown rats. If I needed the money, then I would have endured, but since I do not, I will find something else to do to keep my sanity. (Keep the wisecracks to yourselves.)
If I seem to have a superiority complex, it is because you make it so easy.
Gee ya you are right the Americans are the problem, there are no purebred dogs anywhere else or breeders of them, my god how did I miss that .
The problem is not reputable breeders keeping the dogs who do not pass helath testing alive, the problem is breeders who bred like you did, breeders who breed for nothing more than money. I know several breeders of different breeds who put anything they get from their dogs and more back into their dogs. One works at Dairy Queen to support her dogs wow she must do THAT for the love and makes her money off of her dogs. She also runs a Bed and Breakfast to help, again for the love of doing others laundry I am sure. Just because you were a crappy breeder at best dont claim that all breeders are like you to help you feel better about your actions.
Juno, I get exactly what you are saying. Well thought out and expressed in my opinion. It seems like what you used to do, made a huge impact on who you've become as a person. Kudos to you. Many of us may not have agreed with your views and practices, but that fact has got to be acknowledged and applauded.
Halo it all depends who is doing the arguing and what kind of knowledge they have.
If you're saying as a lump that purebreds are not necessarily healthier than mixed breeds I would agree with that.
However, I personally would never pay a breeder money for a dog if they don't know what THEY are doing. There should be health testing, showing, and a great standard of care on both parents before I'd pay a breeder ANYTHING. Shelling out more than the Shelter Adoption fee should mean you're getting a puppy from a breeder who really puts thought and planning into their litters and takes the responsibility of their education and knowledge as a breeder seriously.
After that - yes, I agree that you can find healthy and unhealthy dogs at a Shelter - pure or mixed breed. Since a good portion of the dogs you will find at Shelters are the ones bred by BYB's and Puppymills (not all... but the greater majority of them), you're going to get the same dog at the Shelter that you'd pay a BYB or Puppymill $400+ for.
If you're using a breeder who health tests, knows what they are doing, understands their breed and how to avoid health problems, and is breeding with higher intentions than making a few bucks... you're not going to find THAT puppy/dog at the Shelter easily.
It just depends on what each person is looking for. As a breeder I will NEVER say that every person should buy a dog from a breeder and NEVER get a Shelter dog. So I would hope that those who encourage others to rescue and get a dog from the Shelter would also be open minded enough to admit that neither case is right for every person...
Juno, I agree with you about the sad-sack 'breeders' who continue to breed the defective or worn out dogs for money. I also know what you mean by different attitudes towards dogs in other countries. I came from Europe when all dogs were considered working breeds, and it would be a cold day in hell to find one in the house, never mind on my bed. I don't really know why I love dogs so much, but to me they are not a commodity, and I don't breed to make a living. What type of yappy little rats are popular in Israel?
I agree with Juno's posts. A dog is a dog. And by the way Juno, I got the posts. We got Sunny for free out of the paper. People say purebreds for health? What about the health problems associated with every breed? I'm not saying that pure bred dogs are bad at all. We have a pure bred husky. Why the husky though? My husband loves the way they look. We didn't want papers or anything like that, we aren't in it to show our dogs. But when it comes down to it, you bought the dog for companionship? Does it fofill that? You bought the dog to pull a sled? Does it do that? As long as the dog fofills the purpose you got it for it shouldn't matter the breed. I agree that designer dogs are out of control, an article in the New Orleans paper said the majority of the dogs in the shelters down here are Puggles, and other designer dog breeds. If the world was less concerned on the specific breed of a dog and more concerned on Will this dog work for me and my family maybe the designer breeders would walk away and over crowding in shelters would subside a little. Again refering to Juno's post, a prized pure bred animal here, case in point the Bengal cat, may be considered dirt in another country. There is a woman who rescues Bengal cats and adopts them out. I forgot the country (possibly Egypt?) but they are everywhere, those cats in the united states go for $600 a kitten and up. An AKC certification here would mean nothing in lets say the middle east where in some contries they shoot dogs on sight. And wasn't it a city in Iraq where it's now illegal to walk your dog in public? The point of it is a pure bred dog is a status symbol. We can brag we have a Siberian Husky. The neighbors can brag they have a Pug, the kids down the street can brag they have a pitbull. I personally enjoy saying our Sunny is a Lab mixed creature. It cracks everyone up.
** After re-reading the end of my post... I just wanted to add, since I worded it like I was saying it was a good thing. What I was saying is that alot of people get their pure breed dog because its a status symbol so they can brag about it. Down here it's brag about having a pitbull. I tried to make that point by saying I brag about Sunny as a creature but I think that might not have come off like that.**
***Edited By: CocoLab on 8/3/2008 4:18:28 PM*** Reason: Wording...
Coco that's actually the problem. NO dog should be a status symbol. That mindset is the wrong reason to buy a purebred dog from a breeder. You don't buy from a good breeder because you want a pure bred. You don't buy from a good breeder because you want to show either. You buy from a good breeder because you want to lesser your risk of health and temperament problems in your companion, because you want to KNOW what you are getting and that it will meet what the breed says it should be. It's not about status. It's about quality and getting an animal that was well planned by a knowledgeable person.
If you're going to go look in the paper and buy a puppy from a breeder you find there for $300 because it is "papered"... then yes, I agree with everything you're saying... however - that breeder, and one who shows, tests, and knows what the heck they are doing are VERY VERY different people with very different dogs. You'll find that same $300 dog in any shelter in the country. You'll probably also have about a 50/50 shot of shelling out 3-10 times that much money in vet bills in the first 3-5 years of that dogs life on health issues a well bred dog wouldn't have otherwise had. Whereas a puppy from a great breeder - it's about a 5% chance.
As a breeder myself - I don't ask an arm and a leg for my pet puppies. I also don't give them away. It's NOT a status symbol - and the people who think dogs are status symbols ARE the problem. It's about making sure what I bring into the world is healthy and that the future family who takes that puppy from me isn't going to shell out obscene amounts of money to their vet while that dog is young. That it's not going to bite their children because I'm breeding excellent examples of the breed temperament wise.
A Lab is a Lab is a Lab - that's a very ignorant statement. Not every purebred dog is the same. A poorly bred Lab, and a well bred Lab don't look or act even a little a like. In most breeds, the puppy you buy in the paper is BARELY an acceptable version of that breed. You buy a purebred because you want something that fits your lifestyle and personality... you're not likely to get it from a breeder who doesn't even know what that breed is supposed to look or act like.
And I am not about to compare 3rd world countries to life in the US. Sorry. It's not the same thing. Those same places also don't have drinkable water - let alone McDonald's... You can't compare PART of our lifestyle to theirs without doing it with the whole thing...
I do agree on some level that dog breeds in some other countries haven't been corrupted like many have in the US. However, some of those also haven't been "perfected" as well either. The more diverse the gene pool, the more options you have in any one breeding program. We talk about inbreeding and linebreeding in the US and how it's caused problems... how do you think they do things in countries with smaller gene pools to play in???
You absolutely cannot talk about BYB's/Puppymills in the same context as a knowledgeable responsible breeder... and if you think they are even remotely similar - you've never met a great breeder.
coco apparently you bought a husky which you knew nothing about the type of dog or the breeder him self so what was the reason.....Exactly what you are blaming others for staus symbol for your husband. MUTTS or designer breeds whatever you wanna call them are the same so it boils down to it dont matter if the dog is pure bred or a mutt it is weather or not the owner is IRRESPONSIBLE and wanted the dog just because it is a "cockadoodledoo" or a Lab or a pit bull and dint take the time to research the breed and the breeder it came from which then leads to health problems popping up that were unexpected because the owners never bothered to research the breed or breeds first and didnt care if the parents were healthy and if the breeder was worth a crap.
I never said we knew nothing about the husky breed. I said my husband bought him because he loves the look. What he had planned on was for him to be a just a companion. Which he will begin training for pulling when he's a little older. Luckily I grew up with that, so he won't get bored. My husband researched the breed over and over again before he bought him, to make sure he would be right with our family as we have another dog and a baby on the way. Now we were novice about the breeder and I believe we did make a mistake with that one. (If anyone's read my strange puppy post) Just to clairify, Sunny is a lab mutt and toki is a husky, sunny was from the paper, the husky was not. (i think someone made a remark about that one earlier)
The whole point of my post was to say that when people go out and buy a dog there is a purpose in it. As long as the dog lives up to that we shouldn't be so obsessed with the breed. When we got Sunny her purpose was to be a companion, she does that. When we bought Toki his purpose was to look like a husky, he does that.(which i understand sounds weird with the same "dont be obsessed with breed" thing) The extras like training for pulling or sledding or jumping or frisbee, the fun stuff they do, is just and added bonus in it all.
I have been on the other side of this argument many many times, the side abby and others are arguing so eloquently and valiantly for. I obviously agree that breeding purebred dogs can be done right and produce healthy wonderful pets at an affordable price. I believe I did it for 16 years. But I am also a realist. I have been around and seen enough to know very well about the horrors that come out of show breeders, mills and shelters alike. I see the “pet industry” for what it was, is and where it is heading, and it is not all sugar and spice and everything nice.
One of the strongest argument for having a purebred though is that as long as you get a well bred one that adheres to the established standard, you remove much of the guess work as to what the dog will look like, what size it will be and how it will behave when it is an adult. You can not say that with most mutts, not the ones from the shelters anyway that you know nothing about their parents and background. This is one of the main reason people are getting purebreeds from breeders. The odds of getting what they want are way higher. Although as we all know, that doesn’t always work out the way it supposed to with all the crap out there.
It is true that in theory you absolutely cannot talk about BYB's/Puppymills in the same context as a knowledgeable responsible breeder… but guess what, those BYB's/Puppymills vastly outnumber the knowledgeable responsible breeder and do way too much damage too fast for the "good guys" to counteract and make a difference. People are too ignorant or just do not care. Which is why in the real world they are all lumped together. As long as people got the AKC certificate in their hand, they are happy. I know it because I helped put those AKC certificates in to many many happy eager ignorant hands over the year in exchange for some cold hard cash. And this is exactly the mentality I am talking about.
If I seem to have a superiority complex, it is because you make it so easy.
But my husband wanted this particular type of dog. Soooo we got a husky. Anyway, we went to pick him up and looked at the parents and they were beautiful well cared for dogs. The pups were beautiful well cared for pups. When we got ours home we noticed a flea egg nest. He was bathed, then bathed again in baby shampoo (we were told that could kill fleas since he's to young to get medicated shampoo). The fleas are not the problem anymore. What we noticed after the flea issue was that our puppy has slightly bowed legs in the back. Is this a "normal" thing for the siberian husky? We aren't looking to get rid of him or anything like that, just because he has bowed legs doesn't mean we don't love him. Bowed legged puppies need love to! haha! I'm just wondering if this is a husky thing or a genetic defect thing. Another thing we noticed that I have NEVER see on a dog before is he has dew claws on his back legs. Has anyone ever seen this before? He's got dew claws on his front legs, but then another set on his back. Not toes, they are above the pad, but unlike the front dew claws they have no bone in them, just a toe shaped nub with a nail...
This post is what led me to believe you did not do your research on the breed. If so you would know if a bow leg is a common defect and if he was suppose to have back dew claws. This post is also what led me to think your husband whanted the breed specificly just because of the breed.