My point in stating going to the UK to hunt, is that there are different sized foxes in different regions. As well as from region to region in the USA. I am very active in my breed in the AKC, and there are numbers of those who actually hunt there dogs on a regular basis and there breeding programs reflect this as well. Just because most of us who show AKC do choose to dress nice to show our dogs, it is NOT A REQUIREMENT. I have seen those who do not dress up also recieve placements. A good judge no matter whether it be AKC, UKC or JRTCA will judge dogs and not up the lead. I know someone who was doing a down and back with there dog at a JRTCA show, when the judge asked her to repeat the move. She inquired if the dog was lame. And the judge replied, why no, I just wanted to see your bum again. So as you see these things can happen in any venue.
I personally do not think that the letters on a dogs papers reflect the quality of the dog, whether they be AKC,UKC or JRTCA!
I think best we can do for our beloved breed is mentor those who are new to the breed.

tflaf, coming from England, and being from 4 generations of huntsmen, and terrier men, I can tell you that our dress code comes from a long line of tradition. There's nothing frou-frou about an Irish tweed hunting jacket, or a pair of fine wool trousers. Those clothes are what we wear daily, not just in the show ring. I guess we could show up in a pair of pink spandex, and a nice sloppy sweatshirt, but why would we? We're trying to showcase our dogs, not stick out like a sore thumb. When you are hunting in England or the U.S you are not going to wear anything that can catch on the underbrush, or trees. In England the weather can be miserable as hell, and very wet. Our clothes have to be tough and warm. That's where the style of clothing comes from, not because of some dress code. Children are more than welcome to show in England also. They are born and raised with dogs, and usually horses as well.

I could go on and on and on about how the AKC is ruining a the working Jack Russell terrier… But instead of wasting my time proving someone wrong ill just post many different articles…(whoo hoo)

http://www.terrierman.com/articles.htm
this covers everything, chest size, a foxes chest size, inbreeding, hunting…the works…Read these and you may become a smarter person.

And BTW the ring ruins the dog…weather it’s the UKC, AKC or JRTCA. If your NOT WORKING your dogs….your NOT saving them.

So then you were in attendance to the AKC Parson Russell Terrier National Specialty in PA? Where we had Geoffery Burnhill and Paul Ross as our judges. You saw these dogs to form you opinion on how the AKC is ruining this breed. How does the show ring ruin a dog who also hunts? There is nothing to say you can not do both.

I still find it odd that the people who say the AKC is ruining the breed, will not step up and name which dogs are which registry in the photos I have posted.

My only comment can be based on my breed and my breeding program. I have excellent quality dogs who do well in the breed ring - but I also know that most of what I breed and produce could be used to herd. In fact, I have several puppies out there that I bred that are doing very well in herding trials... My breed (Shelties) places as much emphasis on performance as on conformation and that is something we're proud of. At our National Specialty the herding titles are celebrated and announced with as much enthusiasm as the conformation champions. We have an "all around Sheltie" award at the end of the week were the dog who can do it all is celebrated (herding, agility, obedience, conformation).

It's more the parent club and less the AKC. Your breed parent club controls the reins.

And I agree it's probably judges more than anything else. That's the parent clubs job to make sure judges are educated on their breed. Not AKC's. If the rep who is doing the judges education doesn't know what they are looking for... you need to point the finger in the right place. It's all subjective. And you can see trends change based on who is in charge (Shelties with a little extra white could finish easily 10 years ago... now, because of the rep doing judges education and her opinion on extra white, it's penalized more severely).

It's also our job as breeders and exhibitors to make sure we are sharing our knowledge with the fancy and new judges. I'm fairly new in the breed (compared to my mentors)... you'd be surprised how many future judges are standing ringside watching your breed be judged... and you'd be surprised by how many exhibitors won't answer questions...

I do agree that "show" dogs should also be able to perform their function. But I think the breeders need to step up and take responsibility for that as well. I never enter a show expecting to "win". I go because I want to learn, I want to see other people's dogs, and I want to make sure mine stack up against the rest of the fancy... that means performance as well as conformation to me. I may not compete actively in all venues - but I want to know that should I choose to, I have the dogs to do it - and if other want to, they only thing stopping them is themselves, not the dogs. Structure, healthy, attitude... they are all equally important in a good breeding program. Maybe it's different in other breeds... maybe not... I can only speak for my breed.

I still find it odd that the people who say the AKC is ruining the breed, will not step up and name which dogs are which registry in the photos I have posted Ok as far as myself it would be stupid of me to do so since it would be going back on what I have previously said. That being that it takes years to ruin a breed not that going AKC is going to ruin a breed immediately. It's not like I got this fat rear of mine the second I changed my last name. It took years for it to pop up. Changing a name or registry doesn't mean the animal or animals are going to morph into some other shape over night. That's science fiction not reality. In fact the animal itself isn't going to change at all unless it gets fat and old like me through the years. It's the decendants of the animals that are going to change a little at a time through breeding.

Maybe it is the parent clubs that are to blame. Too bad the AKC can't police it's parent clubs and kick out the ones that aren't maintaining their breeds. I am very glad to know that there are still shelties that are able to herd. That's awesome. I hope there are still many other breeds that haven't been ruined and won't be. I think shelties are truly beautiful dogs. Too much hair for me to maintain though.I much prefer a nice broken coated JRT no offense . I've seen plenty of beautiful dogs in the AKC. Truly beautiful. Some of course don't have a single thought in their pretty little heads, but the same goes for people and probably dogs from a few other registries as well. To see a beautiful,intelligent,and correct dog do the work it was intended to do is awesome. That's not say that I don't believe that it wouldn't also beawsome to see one doing some other job. There are many jobs for dogs out there that don't necessarily involve the original purpose for the dog, but maybe something that might play off of it. EX jrts hunting tree snakes in Guam. Shelties as therapy dogs. German shepherds as search and rescue dogs. Etc. But all in all I think the dog should be physically able to do the oiginal job as well as having the instincts to do it even if it never has the chance to actually do the job. Making sure hunting dogs are in the recent bloodlines of new litters is one way to maintain that in the jrt.
Pen2 do you guys wear dresses in the hunt field? And dress shoes? That's what I call froo froo. I understand that the English hunting outfit comes from a long line of tradition and apparently common sense. Windy Valley's hunting pics are gorgeous. Very lovely and she must feel truly blessed that she was able to enjoy such a thing. I would love to see it at least once. The only hunting I have seen is here in the US though involving my own two feet, backpacks, shovels and other equipment and some determined terriers with the appropriate equipment on them as well. My very first hunt, my inexperienced female dove right into a hole the first time she was put too it and almost immediately after she disappeared from sight returned with a large possum in tow. It was so exciting to see my own dog doing just what she was bred to do. And no the animal wasn't killed it was released and it's burrow tunnel was reconstructed and re-covered.

I deal with a breed that does not really show a lot in the show ring. And also the Conformation standard does not really lend itself well to the working dogs. So, most of us just breed for working attributes. One of these things is form.

From having worked with dogs like this we have found. That form will naturally follow function. When we breed for a dog that can be fast, jump high and not get hurt easily. It does not always fall into the man made ideal the parent club has set-up for conformation. But yet it seems to work. So, for me....Show titles for my dog? no thanks.

Also with the German Shepherd Dog. Schutzhund USA has a competetion called the sieger show. These dogs are both schutzhund dogs and show dogs. Every dog in the competetion seems to be not good at either. So, I think when you focus your breeding programs on to many facets. You get mediocrity at all of them. When I look at a breeding. I look at the parents, I admit thier faults. And see if I can improve on one or 2. I do not try to make the worlds best dogs out of one breeding. One fault I am not willing to accept is health problems. I have yet to see a Breeding program that can elimnate successfuly a genetic problem. Over time these seem only to get worse. Even with the most diligent breeders.

Gunny I do believe it is more important for the dog to be able to do what it was bred for than to get a ribbon at a show. Having both is nice, but most importantly is the ability to perform. As you say form follows function. If the dog can give at least an average(preferrably above average) performance then it should mean the dog's form is adequate for the function. That is why the JRTCA is trying to put the emphasis on the working aspects of the dog. Ithas started picturing (in the club magazine True Grit ) only dogs that receive the top awards in the working and go-to-ground classes. In order to compete in the working class the dog must be certified as a worker. They also picture dogs that have received the bronze medallion which means the dogs have successfully worked three different recognized animals and received three certificates from the judge or judges who witnessed it. Unfortunately there will always be breeders who prefer to put the emphasis on plain old everyday conformation instead of working conformation. I'm bringing up two future terrierwomen (my third isn't interested) and I hope that for the future of the breed they desire to maintain a working level in their terriers.

One of the things I find awesome is that people like Michelle Ward, and the two guys I have become aquainted with in Colorado will take people out to hunt there dogs. And the one question none of them have asked is....CAN I SEE YOUR DOGS REGISTRATION PAPERS. The one thing that keeps getting missed here, is I personally know lots in the AKC who regularly hunt there dogs. And I don't just mean Earthdog trials. I mean out in the field with tracking collars, shovels, probe bars, dirt, and mud, cold wet fields and carharts. If it would make you happy, I would wear my carharts to show my Parson's. But I think I would get too hot indoors. The last show I attended, I was wearing brown trousers, a brown plaid hunt jacket with a velvet collar, and paddock boots. I do wear dresses, but hey I live in Rockies, I don't get the oportunity very often to dress up.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t202/wvjrts/904.jpg
Here is another picture for you. If you look closely into the hole you will see the white fur. And yes it is an American bred dog with AKC registration papers.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t202/wvjrts/morediggin.jpg
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t202/wvjrts/headstand.jpg
These are just some pics of a couple of my girls in normal play in the yard.

Windy Valley I think that is great that there are AKC dogs out there hunting. I hope that it stays that way and that the show ring doesn't change the breed in the future so that show ring champions and hunting terriers are not one and the same.
I do find it unfortunate that the AKC eliminates all of our under dogs except for the ones that reach the 12" mark. That sure does eliminate some mighty fine working dogs. I've known quite a few unders that were awesome workers. They were able to hunt a variety of quarry. Of course when I talk of unders I am not talking about terriers with short little legs. I'm talking about balanced terriers. I also did not see the rough coat mentioned. A good rough coat in a breeding program can help to keep good coats on the future pups. Breeding too many smooths together can eventually lead to poorer coats. Rough coats aren't much fun to groom,but they have as good a coat as a broken for hunting in various weather and terrains. I did read that scars are allowed if earned hunting, but does that include lost teeth? Sometimes dogs lose teeth hunting. One of my girls would chew her way through things as well as dig. The only thing I saw mentioned about teeth was that missing teeth was a fault.

It is not a registerys fault that a breed goes bad.
It is breeders who breed to dogs who are winning big and don't meet the working/showing standard that wreck breeds.
Look at Rottweilers,must of the top winning dogs couldn't earn a performance title except rally novice.

Just because the AKC standard does not allow for under 12" in the ring, it does not mean that many of we AKC breeders do not value and keep those unders for our breeding programs and for working.
As far as coats, I must correct you. If you continue to breed rough to rough or broken coated dogs, coats will be come soft. It is the harsh coats of the smooths that are vital to keeping correct coats. But keep in mind this must be a correct double coated smooth. They too are a valuable asset to any breeding program. Although we do not declare rough coats in our AKC standard per say, we do consider anything with furnishings as broken coated. We do have rough coated dogs and we do show them as well.

My best friend has put herding titles on many of her Rotties. She has had some of the nicest Rotties I have ever seen. Perry Payson and Keith Carter both also breed really nice Rotties.

My best friend has put herding titles on many of her Rotties. She has had some of the nicest Rotties I have ever seen. Perry Payson and Keith Carter both also breed really nice Rotties.


Maybe they are nice,but neither does performance.A Rottweiler is a working breed first.
I wish the ARC would grow balls and demand working titles on dogs being bred alot.A CDX at the least for males.That would wash out alot of those pretty dogs.And keep Rottweilers a working breed.

Sweetie, Although the Rotties are in the working group you need to learn your history on the breed. They were originally bred to herd. The ranchers had the rotties take the stock to town and then the money was tied into a bandana around the dogs neck to prevent the money from being stolen. It would be nice if you could attend the Eukanuba Invitational dog show where they have each parent club set up a meet the breeds booth. Where the general public can learn about the history and use for each breed represented there.
Cattlemen used the descendants of the Roman dogs to bring the herds to the butcher for sale and to guard their purses of money on the way home, and the butchers in turn used the dogs to pull the carts carrying the meat. The butchers developed a larger strain of dogs for draft work, but it is the smaller herding-type Rottweilers that are most popular today.
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/rottweil.html (information provided by)

I know the whole history of the breed and have an extentive libary/plus hundreds of Amer and German pedigrees.
I have studied the breed for almost 20 years.And what people are doing to the breed is terrible.What is winning now couldn't work if it's life depended on it.But they are winning (because of the handler) and people breed to top winning dogs.Not because they are correct,but because they win.They are the flavor of the day.
So A registery has nothing to do with breeds gone bad,but people breeding to whats winning even tho it's not correct.
Dogs should prove worthy to be bred.By passing health test,earning a CH plus have performance titles.
Winning is not everything.Keeping the breed as it was ment to be is.

***Edited By: rutylr on 11/28/2008 2:39:18 PM***
Reason: spelling