I am wondering if it just me. Does it seem to anyone else that it seems to be people that sell animals that are getting the blame for the shelters and rescues full to the brim? Not the people whom are treating them as disposable? Not here, but in alot of other sites I frequent, you get the die hard rescuers almost berating people, telling them you should ONLY go to a shelter or rescue to get a pet.Making them feel guilty, blaming the breeder's because if we didn't breed the shelter's wouldn't be so full, or there wouldn't be a need? What about the people who actually put them in there? They are doing alot of work trying to educate people about puppy mills and bad breeder's it seems (so good that almost everything that ever goes wrong with a pet is attributed to bad breeding now, and unfairly and unreasonably alot of the time, it seems), but not the responsability we take on when we get a pet. The buck,it seems, gets passed to the breeders? I for one, like to have a good idea of exactly what I am getting, what health issues to be prepared for, some sort of accurate history, and am uncomfortable with the fact that the shelters and rescues are not held to anywhere near the same standards, rules, and expectations that anyone else whom is involved in the transfer and care of an animal is. That doesn't mean I put down shelters as a whole, promote things like "you should only get your pet from a shelter who does this, this, and this, exactly this way" (completely unrealisticly I might add), or look down on those whom chose to get their pets from the local shelter or rescue. It is a personal choice, and we can do both I think.Here's a story, and not my only one. A friend of ours went to that big store to the weekend adoptions. He of course, called us to find out what we thought about the puppy (3 months or so) he was considering for their family. The person he was talking to was just plain old making things up, and trying to literally and obviously lie about the breed. He thought of every way he could possibly think of to say the dog was a pit/mastiff mix, while telling him, no, it's not a pit mix, it's this. Staffy came up alot, LOL. We told our friend yes, it's a pit mix, but that does not mean bad dog. Well, clearly, this adoption specialist person was not aware of what the paperwork, cause guess what it said. LOL. So, he was lying about the breed to get the pet adopted.And he was asked several times if that was what the mix ACTUALLY was, as we were on the other side of the phone and telling our friend. Then our friend told us something that made us tell him NO, get out of there, and make sure you do it without a dog! He told us about another cute little puppy that wasn't for adoption right then, but would be soon. You could visit with this little puppy, and pet it, but it wouldn't be for adoption until it was better from the ........ wait for it .... PARVO. The adoption people were wearing gloves. This puppy was in a place that people bring their pets to, with the other dogs for adoption, and people were allowed to touch it? And then touch other dogs? They knew it and brought it in there? OMG. Well, our friend ended up bringing home the pit/mastiff mix, but after a couple of days took it back to the shelter when some blood showed up in it's stool, which they told him was round worms? This sort of thing is acceptable if your a shelter or rescue, but ONLY for shelters and rescues. How come? For any other entity it would be illegal I think. Sorry, I think I veered off track here. Similar but different subject. I am in no way against shelter's and rescues, just the attitude that some people seem to adopt regarding them. So, what do you guys think about this(pick a subject, lol)? Other than I'm a rambling idiot Found this poem and love it. A Breeders Poem I love my little puppy; she makes my house a home. She is my very sweetest little friend; I never feel alone. She makes me smile; She makes me laugh; She fills my heart with love . . . Did some person breed her, or did she fall from above?
I've never been a breeder, never seen life through their eyes; I hold my little puppy and just sit and criticize. I've never known their anguish; I've never felt their pain, the caring of their charges, through snow or wind or rain.
I've never waited the whole night through for babies to be born, The stress and trepidation when they're still not there by morn. The weight of responsibility for this body in my hands, This darling little baby, who weighs but 60 grams.
Should you do that instead of this . . . or maybe that was wrong? Alone you fight and hope, one day, he'll grow up proud and strong. You pray he'll live to bring great joy to someone else's home. You know it's all just up to you; you'll fight this fight alone.
Formula, bottles, heating pads, you've got to get this right, two-hour feedings for this tiny guy, throughout the day and night. Within your heart you dread that you will surely lose this fight, To save this little baby, but God willing . . . you just MIGHT.
Day one; he's in there fighting; you say a silent prayer. Day two & three, he's doing well, with lots of love and care. Day four & five . . . he's still alive; your hopes soar to the heavens. Day six he slips away again, dies in your hands, day seven.
You take this little angel, and bury him alone. With aching heart and burning tears, and an exhausted groan, You ask yourself, "Why do this? . . . Why suffer through this pain?" Yet watch the joy your puppies bring,and everything's explained.
So, when you think of breeders and label them with "Greed," Think of all that they endure to fill another's need. For when you buy your puppy, with your precious dollars part, You only pay with money . . . while they pay with their heart.
I love that poem, where did you find it, can I cross post it?
As far as your view, I have to agree. Breeders get all the bad rap out there. The problem I belive is not the breeders, it is the public. They don't understand what they are getting, don't do the reseach, and just see a cute puppy. they don't think about a lifetime. If they have to move, they don't think about the puppy. People in the military really erk me. Why get a dog if you can't take it with you? I see more give away posts about people who are active duty and having to give up their pet. What were they thinking when they got it. Don't get me wrong, thank you for serving our country, but think about the animal also.
The other thing I have noticed about people in general, is very few care about health. Most want a cheap puppy. They dont seem to care how healthy the parents are, or even if they have had genetic testing, as long as the puppy is cheap. You get what you pay for I guess, little do they know it. You would be surpised how many people I speak to that still don't know what a puppy mill is, or thinks the pet store puppies are actually for local breeders like they are told. Scary isn't it?
The truly belive that federal regulations need to be stricker on both the rescue/shelters, and breeders. puppy millers and BYB can get away with way to much. All of these mixed breeds with cute names keep popping up, and no one can do anything about it. Pet stores who sell sick puppies, and no one does anything about. Everything just needs to stop all together. USDA needs to step down, and quit treating dogs like livestock. Some organization that knows and cares about dogs needs to step up and acutally do somthing, not just sit back and complain about breeders.
I breed, I rescue, I health test, etc. Anyone who can not do that doesn't need to be breeding.
Illusion I can echo what you said almost word for word... Do I think that there are breeders out there that contribute to the Shelter populations - YES. Do I think the finger needs to be pointed at ALL breeders... NO. The same can be said for pet owners. Some are contributing to the Shelter population... others aren't.
The breeders who don't care about the health of the puppies that result from their breeding two dogs, the pet owners who want to have "just one litter" but have no interest in being responsible for what they bred past the point when money is exchanged, the puppymills who farm out their puppies to broker's so they can produce mass amounts of litters with as little work and responsibility as possible... THOSE breeders are contributing to the problem.
That's only a percentage of people who breed.
The pet owners who want instant gratification, don't do their research, buy puppies because they are "cute", "available", or "the right price", don't want to do any amount of work or take responsibility for a sick, or badly trained dog... they are also contributing to the problem.
I HATE HATE HATE that the government, the general public, and the animal rights people think that pointing the finger at ALL breeders is going to fix any level of the problem.
Like you, I test, I rescue, I take my own dogs back... I plan my breedings with HOURS, if not days, of thought behind each pairing - based not on my "sales" but on how the breeding helps my own program as my primary objective. I've paid $800 for a surgery on a puppy I bred with a fluke defect. I've driven 6 hours to meet someone who bought a dog from me and couldn't keep it based on a family emergency so I could make sure I got it back.
Do I recommend rescue/the shelter as an option? Absolutely. One of my mentors is the regional contact for Sheltie Rescue. I occasionally foster dogs and help place them. I have 2 cats that both came from the Humane Society. Do I think that Rescue is the answer for EVERYONE - NO.
My breeding decisions are not based on the pet market or demands of pet owners. But I do go into every breeding knowing that I'll probably have pet puppies in the litter. I also know that at some point, almost all my adult dogs will need a good pet/retirement home.
yeah, I got it at http://aspcacommunity.ning.com/profiles/blogs/a-breeders-poem-for-the I agree, I think that things need to be regulated all the way around, and I think that things need to change as a whole, and not just for one or two select areas of the 'industry'.And this all breeder's are bad breeder's and I was really only prepared for a stuffed animal instead of an actual living thing and all that goes along with it stuff has got to stop. And the regulations need to be reasonable and fair, and not put in place and regulated by those with extremist views. It's the high horse hypocrisy that really, really bugs me. Most state laws (in the ones that have them) are specifically directed at pet shops, and maybe some large scale breeders, but no one else. USDA, no unpainted wood, but it's okay to keep them in small wire cages? WHAT? Why don't we just work harder at changing the laws and regulations and standards, and those whom it is no longer 'easy' and profitable for would quit. If the regulations (USDA) changed to say something like, oh, no more than two similar sized dogs in an indoor outdoor run in good condition of no less than say, even 6 by 6 each side of the wall, inside proper temperature control, ect. clean, dry, an elevated area, no wire bottoms, ect. (unless they are co-habitating in the house with the humans or something, not in a trailer piled on top of each other on their own) we would lose the majority of these large mills. To much money, too hard, can't keep anywhere near as many dogs, no longer profitable. I think changing a few simple regs. by even a little, would change ALOT. And I think rescues and shelters are great, and a good cause, just not when they look down on everyone else, while doing exactly what they are looking down on others for, minus the breeding part, but if it's under the title of rescue or shelter it's okay. Nobody should be exempt from proper care of the animals and at least having a written individual exam for each animal (monthly for any animals 8 weeks of age and up or something maybe) that is going to change hands so people have a better idea of what they are getting, and no one should be able to display or sell an animal they know is ill beyond maybe parasites and have the treatment change hands. And I also believe you pay for what you get . See, you didn't rant, I'm ranting. Been in my head and bothering me with no one to listen. I wondered if I was the only one, kinda working it out as I go I think. Thank you.
Just as you can't lump all breeders together (there are good breeders and bad breeders) you can't lump all shelters together. There's no regulation when it comes to shelters-they all set their own rules.
Keep in mind-most shelters are understaffed and underfunded. They will take help wherever they can find it. Bad help may be better than no help.
I got both of my dogs from breeders. Health was a priority for me, so I chose breeders who both do testing. And yes, I agree-most people just want a cheap dog. "Why spend $800 for a dog when you can get the same one for $200 in the paper" is what I hear.
My next dog (assuming there will be a next dog) will come from a rescue. I'll just take a chance on health in order to save a life and give a homeless dog a second chance. I wish more people would do the same. And I also wish more people would adopt ADULT dogs (and seniors) instead of always looking for a puppy.
Beautiful Poem I must agree!!!!! I can't add much more i agree total with all, except to say I am breeder to and I my self only breed once every 2 to 3 years. My dogs come first above anything else, and I have a waiting list so most of my pups are placed before i breed to ensure good homes and i keep in touch with all who get a pup, I stand behind my dogs pet or show the same.And it is written if ever they can't keep their pup it is to come back to me, I have seen my breed in the shelter's and it broke my heart and i could not stand the thought of one of my pups there..but most who don't care and is out for the money will breed however many times the bitch comes in heat, and that makes me very angry, they do not care about the welfare of the dog, Dogs bodies need time to recoop to just like ours do when we have a baby, and they get run down and sick then dumped out or out at the shelters... make me sick .......
Always trust your dogs instinct about ppl it is always right..
I think the public is more aware of puppy millers than ever. Oprah played a role in that. Her show on puppy mills had a huge audience and has been rerun. Before I get a puppy, I ask the right questions. I hope more Americans are doing this. If the public refuses to support millers, they will dwindle down to nothing and go away. Do not buy from pet stores, who buy from brokers, who buy from mills. Ask breeders how many dogs they keep, how many different breed. For God's sake ask for references. And demand to see the facilities and the parents. Do your homework and ask for the appropriate health records.
I've been burned by a poor breeder. Live and learn. Good breeders realize temperament is a huge part of a dog's over all health and well being. Poor Annabelle, my insanely aggressive Mastiff, broke my heart and my wallet. I am still grieving her, and wishing I had done all of the afore mentioned.
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read!! Groucho Marx
I can see both sides of the issue. The bad breeders produce way more dogs that the good ones. Therefore the good guys get pushed aside. Many people still believe there has to be something wrong w/ a dog for it to end up in a shelter. I think a lot of the anti-breeder sentiment is a misguided attempt to guide people toward rescue. I personally think everyone should consider getting a dog from the shelter first. If you look into it and it's not for you fine, but at least you gave the idea a chance. I plan on getting my next dog from a reputable breeder, but I promised myself I would keep an eye out for the right rescue dog too.
I agree completely that dogs end up in shelters b/c of the person who took them there or turned them out on the street. Once you take on a dog, it is you responsiblilty for it's entire life. Having said that, if more breeders were as picky as some of you (I don't know all you very well), then puppies wouldn't end up with people who dump them. People wouldn't end up w/ the wrong breed b/c a good breeder will say, "this breed isn't for you." People wouldn't buy a dog on impulse b/c they would come to their senses by the time the breeder finished interviewing them. People wouldn't buy a dog to entertain their kids for a few months b/c the breeder would tell them a dog is a lifetime commitment. People would take their dog to obedience classes before their was a problem. And people would have an expert to call anytime they had a problem w/ their dog. No it's not fair that all breeder's are punished and you guys have my support 100%.
As for legislation, I would love to see an end put to the wholesale of puppies, period. It should be illegal to broker them or sale them in stores. They should go directly from their breeder's home to their new permenant home.
I gotta say, the look of confusion on people's faces, as you watch the wheels turn, wondering WHY you are trying to 'talk them out of your breed', is pretty priceless. But if they can't, won't, or don't want to deal with the bad, no point in getting to the good. I think we COULD stop it, but I also think we are skipping steps, and thinking too 'big'. It's just not realistic, and not going to happen that way I think. If we take it one step at a time, little by little, I think we can accomplish the goal of knocking out the mills. If we simply 'up' the anti, and the standard of care required by a little, how are they going to say it's not fair? People will know REAL QUICK, to run away fast, if they are unwilling to provide even a bit of space, off wire for their breeding dogs. I think it is getting too confusing for the public, and EVERYONE is under suspicion of being a mill now. And if things don't go completely right, or as someone thought it should, your a mill now. I think the word is being used a little TOO often, and not in the right context. Just closing down pet shops, is not only thinking too big I think (not to mention they don't seem to be particularly affected by this route), but those mills that DO sell to them, also sell on-line, straight to people. AND, they get more money for their pups, and don't give the same guarantees (why people are signing these, I don't have the slightest idea) they give the stores, so it's actually MORE profitable for them to sell directly to the public (this DOES actually affect the stores). I know this for a FACT. It's just too confusing for those who AREN'T familiar with the animal world right now. And thank you guys so much for responding. It's nice to actually discuss it, instead of ARGUE about it, with people whom have thrown you right over the line with the mills because you think a little differently than them, and god forbid, breed. I'm sure alot of us have rescued pets mixed right in with our 'high dollar' ones. You CAN keep a foot in both worlds, so to speak, I think.
yeah i agree with rottluv its the bad breeders that over breed that make yall good breeders that breed just enough to handle at a time look bad and at the same time its the people that gets the dogs then decide they dont want or need them any more so they just force them to shelters instead of trying to find a new home for the pet.
Not all the bully breeds are mean.Dont let them band our babys,They are lovable family members.
Karibear, the fact that there is no concrete definition for a mill is probably the best thing they have going for them. IMO, anyone who breeds commercially, is USDA licensed or sells puppies wholesale is a mill. Of course that's just my opinion. I know that millers and brokers sell online and stopping the wholesale of puppies wouldn't stop them all, but it would help. The online brokers make my skin crawl by the way. I also don't think the profit is that much bigger for direct sales, or else all millers would do it. They do make more off a puppy, but they have to maintain a website, answer emails and phone calls, take the pups to the airport, etc. With wholesale, a truck pulls up and takes the pups away.
Well said Sassy. It is not the money issue only which is what makes me come to the conclusion it is more profitable. I am led to websites all the time for people who I know, 100%, sell to stores. It isn't that they are selling the puppies for more money (only). Stores tend to get a little irritated when a seller sells to the stores for more than they sell to the public for, but it DOES happen sometimes. It is what they are held responsible for when a store is the buyer, and what they are NOT responsible when the general public is the buyer. Now, once you get down to all the actual facts in alot of 'puppy complaints', most can't be proven, or they have alot of unreasonable expectations, or maybe their just nuts, or they aren't quite ready for a pet, and so on and so forth. Most complaints can be debunked very easily once you have all the facts, at the end of the day. That isn't going to happen when you sell to a pet store, most of the time. They usually KNOW exactly what the breeder's are responsible for, and don't make rediculous claims, or no breeder's will sell to them. All and all, I see exactly how selling to the general public would be more profitable, and it boils down to those guarantees. If a particular puppy has x problem, and x will require a replacement to a pet store, but your guarantee does NOT cover x (or a public buyer without general knowledge will most likely catch it later, and the guarantee's have a large time frame difference), who do you sell to, to make the profit? NOT the store. You sell to the store, you just sold two for the price of one. You sell to the general public, much better chance of just a sale. Now, I am not saying this is all breeder's who sell to stores. Just some one's I've particularly noticed have completely different guarantees between the store's and the public, and that makes me wonder. Alot of them have to answer plenty of emails and phone calls when they sell to stores too (and they make plenty of their own as well). Not all stores buy from brokers, or at least very rarely and under certain cercumstances. Alot of that is that you have no idea of what's happening on the other end. There are actually some stores who try to avoid the mills to the best of their ability, and prefer to get to know their breeder's personally (and vise versa). Also a very good point - So, IMO, a puppy mill is not just someone who sells to stores. Nor, do I believe selling to stores automatically makes you a mill. Nor do I believe ALL stores are bad. Unfortunately, it's just the bad far outweigh the decent. So, my own personal general definition of a puppy mill is: Someone whom breeds and produces offspring purely for profit (that in itself signifies a major problem, how do you make a profit if you are even doing things half way right? Just providing proper or decent care means losing money), without regard or any thought to the animals or the customers, or the quality of the animals they are putting out, or the knowledge to do so (and little to no effort made), and with absolutely no ethics or integrity. So, it would include the majority of the wholesalers, but right on down and everyhthing in between, to the guy down the street, who seems to have puppies regularly, produced by his two 'pets' (or more than two) which he purchased from someone just like him for a few hundred bucks. This guy may or may not call himself a breeder. The guy who's transactions pretty much consist of, yes, I have puppies, they are X amount, they are too young to have shots yet (IF they even know this), yes, they are ready to go now. Hands over puppy, pockets the money, DONE. And he will do it all again in approximately 6 months, and will of course, make a profit, because he doesn't put much into the dogs OR the puppies. Doesn't even actually know anything about his dogs, breeds, puppies, breeding, nothing, or nowhere near enough. Feeds Old Roy, or Kibbles and Bits, cause they are cheap, and never made the effort to learn the link between diet and health. He won't ever know if that puppy had a problem, because they never speak again, they don't even know who each other ARE. THAT guy is just a much a mill to me, and makes me just as angry, as the people who do the same thing on a larger scale. Links to a couple of articles http://www.americananimalwelfare.com/overpopulation.html http://www.americananimalwelfare.com/petstore.html
My personal opinion - we don't need legislation... we need smarter pet buyers (more educated if nothing else) that don't fall prey to "instant gratification". There is no where near the funding to support paying for inspectors to inforce strict regulations. You WILL have people who easily fall between the cracks and legislation will just give pet buyers a false sense of security.
Pet buyer's don't need to think that the government has done their research and job for them. They need to be careful, cautious, and ask questions. They need to make educated decisions.
The sad fact... the number of people who get "taken" that are smart, educated buyers is slim. Most of the people buying from lousy breeders got burned because they wanted cheap, available, and cute... even worse - no questions asked by the breeder.
You would NOT believe the number of people I get inquiries from that think at my PET price that they should be allowed to breed their dog. Or that ask me to "discount" my puppies. Or that flat out tell me that Joe Breeder down the street will sell them a Sheltie for 1/2 my price...
In fact, I just recently had some people stop by to look at my dogs and inquire on a puppy. They were upset by my price and told me they paid 1/2 my price for their previous Sheltie that they just had put to sleep. They then shared that she was only 18 months old and was in full blown kidney failure due to a birth defect - and had been sick almost since they got her. But they weren't willing to pay any more for their next dog than what they had just paid from the breeder who sold them a sick dog and didn't even offer a guarantee solid enough to cover what killed their dog.
You will always have people who don't want to pay more than $200. Those people will go to whatever cheap breeder is available. Regulations put in place are going to help regulate the breeders who breed lots of puppies... but what about those people having "Just One Litter"? Do you know what the actual percentage of puppies born in the US on an annual basis is made up of "Just One Litter" people? And those breeders absolutely don't test. They don't offer guarantees. They don't know where what the heck is in their pedigrees. They don't care about the health of the puppies they produce. They think as long as their neighbor or aunt says "I want a puppy from Fido" that there isn't an issue with having a litter of puppies.
Our general population needs to expect more from their breeders and learn to make their own educated decisions. As a breeder - I don't want the government telling me what good animal husbandry practices are. I don't want them telling me how to socialize and raise my puppies. Because they can't specify what is correct for each breed - and since every breed is different... how do you put that in writing? That legislation would be REALLY long.
Government regulation is the lazy way for buyer's to FEEL protected... in reality, there will always be breeders who skirt around following rules... and all you've accomplished is making buyer's think that they don't have to ask simple questions.