Patience will pay off. Its hard to wait when you want something 'right now', I know I am one of those people, lol.
But most reputable breeders will have a waiting list or not have a litter on the ground at all times.
Show breeders (most anyway) breed for themselves first, this means they dont breed every female every heat just because. There is generally a 'purpose' to the breeding.

Waiting a bit longer will pay off in the end when you have a well bred, healthy, sound puppy.

Firstly, thanks to all for the "well wishes", they are appreciated...

I'd like to comment on the concept that "getting a puppy shouldn't be easy". Well, maybe this is correct. The only problem is that getting a puppy IS easy. Very easy. Some places even provide financing for dogs (weird concept). I could go out and buy 10 dogs during my lunch break if I really wanted to.

The process of breeders screening pet stores, not selling to pet stores, only breeding when they want to produce something with a litter... they are all noble ideals - to some extent I think they are good ideas... but this also makes it hard to get a dog from a breeder (and just a breeder). Its still easy to get a dog from a pet store. I'm not saying that its wrong to do these things, I just think it is in direct conflict with the idea of "no puppy mills". The puppy mills will always get a lot of business as long as its much tougher to get a dog from a breeder. Its not going to change the numbers at all - just as many dogs are going to the pound, given up or just let loose. All that changes is who gets the business when that dog is sold.

On a separate topic, why does this site have advertising space for pet stores and BYB's if all of its members are against such things? That seems a littler weird.

Also, are the breeders listed in here vetted at all? I see two beagle breeders listed on this site, but I was not sure whether this listing has the same standards as the ad space..

To try to answer your question, as far as the type of advertising here: the administration/site owners are the ones who make the rules for advertising.

The forum portion of the site is not directly related to advertisers, it is simply a free extra the admin decided to give to the visitors and/or advertisers.
The forum is open to any person who wishes to join, you do not have to advertise to join. In fact, most of the posters who post here as regulars do not even advertise on TP themselves or are not breeders.

Nor do we look at the adds, unless its for a good laugh at how gullible people are and what lies the BYBs use to dupe them.

If you're asking if the site owner/admin verifies each breeder to determine if they are reputable, no. The advertising section is the "bread & butter" which allows admin (in part) to offset expenses and offer the public the free discussion forum. It's the same as advertising in the local paper. You pay, you place your ad.

There have been issues with a couple of various advertisers over the years. If someone has a problem or a question they are advised to contact admin directly so the situation can be investigated.

IMO, if you buy from a petstore, knowing where those puppies come from, you are no better than a puppymiller.


That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say that people are so quick to judge. Puppymills and BYB are not as common here in Ontario as they are in other places but we do have some. What I'm concerned about is how harsh some people can be. My German Shepherd was unknowingly bought from a BYB, like I said, they aren't as common here so it's not as easy to spot. That doesn't mean that I'm not better than them. I like to think that I'm a lot better than them. I take care of my pets. I would never do anything as heartless as they have. I also bought a dog quite a long time ago from a pet store. I just recently realized where those dogs come from. But again, that doesn't make me a heartless individual when I've taken such good care of my dogs. They are healthy. Sadly, I had to get rid of the first dog I bought (the one from the pet store)because I was moving and couldn't take her with me but I had her for 2 years before that happened and she went to my best friends house.
Instead of jumping off the handle and accusing someone or attacking someone why not try educating them politely or giving them a chance to explain themselves.


"It's innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent."

***Edited By: pyrmom on 7/8/2009 7:26:19 AM***
Reason: language

How can you quote me and then completely misunderstand what I'm saying!?! The OP said she knew about puppymills and I said "if you know about puppymills." If you'll read my posts, I said buying from a BYB is somewhat better than buying from a petstore. At least with a BYB you can see how your pup was raised and socialized. Plus you can meet the parents. People complain about puppymills, but if no one supported them (buying from a petstore) they wouldn't exist. You state you didn't know about BYBs when you bought your dog, so how can my statement possibly apply to you? You need to work on your reading comprehention!

AGAIN! It wasn't a personal attack to you. I was quoting you but stating an opinion.

Oh and BTW, if you are going to start being nasty and insulting people's intelligence then I have one for you..
The word comprehension is spelt wrong. So maybe you need to work on your spelling.
I wasn't being nasty to people when I posted. I was stating an opinion just like everyone else on here.

***Edited By: Nikki09 on 7/8/2009 2:48:44 PM***
Reason: added more

"Anyway. I also agree with her original quote, if you buy a dog from a pet store you are condeming hundreds to hell."

This is why I made this thread... You want people to buy from a breeder.. but breeders don't compete in the same market as pet stores. Breeders don't come anywhere close to matching volume of dogs needed, they often aren't in a close proximity, and they won't sell to everyone.

People buy puppies from people who can sell them puppies. Aside from this one experience I've had, breeders are competitively priced with pet stores. People WANT a better, healthier dog. They WANT ones from championship lines. No one WANTS to support puppy mills. If people could easily go to a breeder an pick out a dog, there would be no puppy mills.

This is why I can't quite understand why breeders with healthy dogs (with good genes) don't make it their primary mission to provide healthy dogs to the public. Forget about adhering to superficial standards so the dog can be paraded around in front of judges. Produce genetically healthy dogs and get other people to produce genetically healthy dogs. Make them available to the public, so people can buy these dogs.

Spin it any way you like, but any breeder practice that makes it HARDER for the average joe to find and acquire a healthy dog is helping the puppy mills... That applies to all the people here who think it SHOULD be hard to find a dog from a reputable breeder. Its just as bad (if not worse) than buying a dog from a puppy mill.

This is a capitalistic society, where people who want things go and buy them. If there is a demand, people need to supply them. If the responsible breeders dont supply the puppies, then business men who care nothing about the dogs will step in and fill the shortage.

I don't want profits going to the puppy mills... but its a lot like "clean energy". We can talk about how we shouldn't be using gas or diesel, but there needs to be a viable alternative available at the necessary volumes. Until then its just wishful thinking.

If things stay the way they are, the puppy mills will exist forever. Its almost like the people who should be working to eliminate the puppy mills are working contradictory to this goal, and are sitting around wondering why puppy millshave taken over the dog industry. It is really not that confusing...

This is why I can't quite understand why breeders with healthy dogs (with good genes) don't make it their primary mission to provide healthy dogs to the public. Forget about adhering to superficial standards so the dog can be paraded around in front of judges. Produce genetically healthy dogs and get other people to produce genetically healthy dogs. Make them available to the public, so people can buy these dogs.


"so people can buy these dogs" and do what with them??? WOW! That's a bold statement. My dogs are very healthy and genetically tested. I DO provide excellent dogs to the public but yes, I have my standards. I could care less if they show dogs bought from me but I will NOT sell my puppies to a family who has very small children (read the HORRIBLE stories on here that is a direct result of that situation) and I will NOT sell to anyone who will not come to my home and visit with the puppies and parents. (In other words I do not ship.) I want to see their reaction as well as interaction. People who sell to the "public" without any kind of interface with the prospective parents is only in it for the money. No, I DO NOT mean that people who ship their puppies instead of selling in person are in this catagory. I understand that reputable breeders who do ship also require applications as well as references, etc. Reputable breeders want to better the breed. No, I won't sell to someone who verbalizes that they are not sure if they can afford to properly care for their new puppy. My puppies are available to responsible pet owners who will properly care for their new family members.

So are you implying that we reputable breeders who put a lot of time, effort and money into a quality breeding program, should just sell every single puppy we get to every person on a first come first serve basis? I'm never going to do that...ever. After 16 years of successful breeding and selling, I will never do that. People get dogs (yes, even little Boston Terriers) and use them for fighting competitions, abuse them, use them in puppy mill operations and so forth. My dogs will always be placed in loving, caring homes that are APPROVED...always have been and always will be.



Breeders don't come anywhere close to matching volume of dogs needed

Are you out of your mind??? There are millions of dogs in shelters. If people want dogs, there are endless possibilities. Shelters, resuce programs, go down any road on any given day and find a stray wandering around. Volume of dogs needed for what? To be picked up by animal control, to be fought for money in competitions, or to start a new puppy mill???

I'm sorry but I can't agree with your way of thinking. Maybe because I'm from the old school but seriously...there ARE plenty of dogs out there...I'll just keep selling mine the same way I have for many years.

Look, I don't like the idea of puppy mills at all. I would much rather see them fall out of existence.

Also, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I am not really blaming breeders for the existence of puppy mills. I'm saying that they are no different than the people who buy from puppy mills. They are simply thinking of their own agendas, needs and desires... and you can't really lay blame to them for that. Its their right.

I do understand why you have those standards, and I'm not demeaning them... Its a great concept. You want to make sure no dogs end up in the wrong homes. Why? They are your dogs, and you probably couldn't bare to see them end up on the street, mistreated or end up dead. However, do you think denying a family one of your puppies will stop them from getting a dog? Most people will just find someone else, probably through a pet store or BYB.

I understand not wanting to sell to pet stores. You immediately decrease the quality of life of the puppy, and again run the risk of having that puppy end up on the streets. Yet, a pet store can only buy so many puppies. One from you means one less from a puppy mill where dogs are confined to a crate or small cage for their entire lives. The only way puppy mills will die is if they sell less dogs. Retail establishments will always be hot beds for pet sales. To go out of business, people need to compete against them.

I understand only breeding your dog when you want to "further the breed" or get something out of the mix. Breeding for cash is looked down upon. Once again though, the number of people who are going to buy puppies will remain unchanged whether you breed or not. One more dog sold by you is likely to mean one less dog sold by the puppy mills. Less business for the puppy mills means less puppy mills.

My main point is that all of these ideals are not exactly in great harmony. Whether you want to accept it or not, the way to eliminate puppy mills is either

1) Through manipulation of the free market
2) Legislation

We all know #2 is never going to happen. #1 is possible, breeders could compete commercially... but a lot of other ideals get in the way. There is nothing wrong with that. I understand why you would not want to just give anyone a puppy, make extra litters, nor sell to pet stores. I get it. Its your right to do. Just don't pretend that there is no reason why puppy mills get all the business.

Also, I understand plenty of dogs are available in the shelter.. but we both know this is not the same thing. These dogs have often had hard lives, and there are often injuries, personality issues, etc. They may also be difficult to train since they are often older and have been doing whatever they want for extended periods of time.. Not to mention, its a lot like adopting child. Many people want to raise them from start to finish. When I look at my dog, I still see her as a puppy. There was a lot of bonding done while she was growing up, and it sticks with you. I think its great if people get dogs from the shelter, but its not always what people want... nor is it always right for them.

Back to my main point, I made this thread because of the stigma attached to buying a dog from a pet store & puppy mill. Its not as clear cut as people make it out to be. Where an individual decides to buy his/her dog has almost no effect on the existence of puppy mills. Without a large number of new puppies being produced by the reputable breeding community, any uptick in demand for properly bred dogs could not be satisfied for a variety of reasons. People who want a dog will simply buy a dog (save the more extreme advocates).

I don't see how anyone thinks puppy mills are going to go out of business with the way things are now. There is no "plan B" or alternative for most people who want a puppy. Pretending otherwise is just wishful thinking.

The first step to solving a problem is to first realize that one exists. Whatever strategy breeders are employing to stop puppy mills is not working...

Sorry I ranted and raved. I just get upset sometimes I guess.

"I do think you are right Agent, puppy mills will never go away. The bigger problem I see at least from the phone call is money. "

Wherever there exists a way to make money, people will exploit it, no matter what the costs. Its very sad what some of these dogs are put through in the name of corporate greed. I am just personally a little frustrated at the alternatives for your average person. There should be a more organized strategy, preferably by an organization like the AKC or the UKC.. or even through some of the national breeders club.


You are right though, a lot of people don't know what a puppy mill is... Part of the problem though is that the better alternatives aren't being sold (literally and figuratively) to the general public. People aren't really exposed to this side of dog breeding, and until they are they aren't going to know the difference.

As far as price, I'm not quite sure what goes behind the scenes here... but I have to conclude that there are practices that are unnecessary for pet quality dogs and probably relate to the whole dog show business. I went shopping for Shelties 2 years ago, and one breeder wanted $1800 for one of her pups. Some wanted $800, others $1000. The sheltie I bought ($800) was tested for the common genetic ailments the effect the breed, and her parents were OFA certified. The one for $1800 did the same. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they paid more for the stud, or had some really high show success.. Maybe this is great for people who like to show their dogs, but it doesn't help people like me who just want friends. Any costs that are being incurred that are for something other than plain and simple health are just hurting the cause here.

Sorry I ranted and raved. I just get upset sometimes I guess.

Thats what message board are for. If we all agreed it would all be very boring.

I guess breeders are just darned if the do and darned if they don't. If they raise a few litters a year, so they can give them adequate attention, screen buyers, etc, they are helping puppymills. If they raise many litters and sell to anyone who calls, they are adding to the pet overpopulation, possibly selling to the puppymills and risking becoming a puppymill themselves. Sorry but I prefer the former.

Sorry Nikki, but you did personally attack me. This is the second thread in a matter of days that you have quoted me, and me alone, and then twisted what I said. Spelling and reading comprehension are two separate issues, but you're right I shouldn't have been too lazy to check my spelling.

For those looking for a pet quality dog but can't understand the higher prices breeders have don't have a idea of the costs involed. When a breeder gets a top of the line dog that they would want to breed most will do a battery of tests to check out its health. Many breeders stop here and can sell at a lower price. But for us to put the dog into the show ring is really where to cost explode. The purpose of the AKC comformation ring it to have a number of experts put their hands on your dog, look at their movements and temperments to judge which dogs should be used for breeding.
Here is a quick break down from us. I looked high and low for a show quality Pembroke corgi to go with my show quality female. After many months and many phone interviews I found a really nice little guy, half the country away for $1200. So alittle over $500 later for travel I get back home with him. After he has been here for a while we sign him up for a few show at around $35 per day plus travel and supplies.
Not just anyone can be a good handler in the ring so we hired a handler who works mostly with Pembroke who as also handled our guys older brother who she got up to #3 in the country. She likes him and agrees. Simple contract which for pricing is normal is $10 a day plus $75 for show days plus a share of the gas,parking,food, etc.... and paying for all sign up fees and some shows are up to 4 days.
We got lucky because our guy is spot on so he finished quicker then a lot of other dogs we seen. Still by the time he got home we had paid out well over $5,000 to have him shown and earn his AKC championship, just to prove to us and anyone buying a puppy from us down the road that he is of good quality stock.
So if a breeder dishes out when it is all said and done around $7,000 to 10,000 to get a great foundation dog, good chance even if when the puppies are sold as a pet only home the prices will be higher then say a source that just breeds what ever they have.
Sorry to have gone on so long but a puppy mill and very little over head and expensives compaired to us and will breed a female to the grave and never let her rest. Our females may get one breeding if they rested their last cycle, and it could be longer depending which one we are wanting to breed because we are devoted to each litter and if we had 2 or 3 litters we would never be able to spend time with the puppies like we should.