curdog-

What you are afraid of is what is already happening. I am really confused about your stance here.

Medical students have been hating THIS for years-because of insurance companies. Docs have been closing down their practices because of mal practice cases and ins companies for years. There is a huge shortage of family docs and there is a wait now if you want to get in to see someone.

From what I see-actually working at a hospital- the docs are looking forward to something being different as they can not practice as drs once could.

with ins companies now you can not go to any dr you please. My unit only takes approved insurances so if you have a different ins company your screwed! So you don't have that option now.

Now if you don't meet specific criteria-age being one you will not get a hip or kidney or surgery for whatever. So what are you talking about exactly????!!!!!



I still think the best option is a huge insurance overhaul. But something has to change. Medicare/medicaid is not the best thing in the world. It needs some limits. People come in with it and ab use the hell out of the system for no reason but they can. And private ins companies deny everything. You have to fight them every step of the way.

Well I'm working class, British, and proud of our National Health Service. Its all I have ever known and I'd like to say that for the last 50 years the working class people of Britain have benefited from this service, we no longer have fears about getting sick or injured and worry about how we will pay to see a doctor. I have had to use the NHS for several serious health issues, I dread to think what it would have cost me in the US, my kids have had free dental treatment, my daughter spent 12 months in a brace, it would have been impossible if we had had to pay for treatment, I see a podiatrist on a regular basis, all that treatment is free, everything is free, we only pay a small amount of money on prescriptions and Adult dental care ( if you are on a very low income its completely free of charge) no where near what it would cost if the NHS didn't exist.
I'm quite happy paying the small amount of tax per year it costs to have a National Health Service, and NO the hospitals are not dirty and out dated, and waiting lists are NOT long and YES very old people who need joint replacements will get them, I know this as my Grandmother when in her 80s had a hipe done...free of charge.
Thank you

If the government would open the insurance companies to sell across the state lines, insurance would be affordable for almost everyone, because there would be good old fashioned competition at work... Why do you think Wal Mart is doing so well, anyway? they've squashed the competition and lowered their prices to where even poor old GrandMa can afford a TV on her social security.
Competition is the reason Capitalism works so well.... Like us selling our puppies.. If they're priced too high, some other breeder will come in with a lower price puppy and sell it. That's competition, and if the insurance companies could sell across state lines, you could SHOP for a lower rate and the companies would be fighting for your business like sharks over a seal.
Hey Alicat...can't afford a doctor? Have you actually started LOOKING for a doctor who lowers his fees to build up a clientel? They're out there and it's up to you to find them... I'll say this again...Pay for your care...Got the flu? Pony up the office fee and go to the dang doctor, don't go to the ER and run up some stupid bill I'll have to pay higher property taxes for. YOU pay it.. You're the one who's sick anyway. You all just want to put your money in TOYS cell phone with those fancy ringtones? Costs money, right? Cable TV? Renting DVD's every Friday night? Going to fast food resturants? How much are you wasting on PLEASURE and Liesure items that added up could buy your stupid insurance? Or pay that office call?
Let's get back to competition and save the government money for those that TRULY need it. Adn a little competition from the hospitals could help too...tell your doctor to bargain with the hospital services...go over that 10 page itemized bill and refuse to pay $50 for a box of Kleenex or $20 for an asprin. Or that plastic bedpan you're using for a dog food bowl that your insurance company paid $20 for. They're not going to fine tune your bill, you have to and if everyone would do that, the insurance companies just might take notice. It's YOUR bill, not theirs. You lower it. DANG PEOPLE GET OFF YOUR DUFFS AND MAKE THIS COUNTRY GREAT AGAIN

Sorry SBG but I am in canada and also proud of our health care, I know that if I get sick I can go to the hospital and not have to worry about weather or not I can afford to pay the bill. I also pay for extra health insurance that covers the cost of prescriptions and some dental as well.

Its pretty easy to tell people to pony up, but after what I watched my dad die of over the last year and a half I will thank god that we ahve health coverage. You have to wait 6 months to apply for medicare after being diagnosed, within 6 months my father went from golfing to not being able to talk, and hardly being able to walk, WTF would my mother have done for those 6 months? Here within those 6 months my mother had an electric lift and wheelchair, a talking machine, a lifting chair, and many many other medical devices at her house to use for my father to keep him comfortable and fed until he passed away. All of the equipment was loaned to her and was picked up and will be dropped off for the next people to use. As I said thank Dog for Alberta Health Care!!

Schoolbus Gal,

You stole my thunder! Every point you made was very well stated.

Hey Mini


I've had pneumonia for 3 months now. Just don't have the money to go to the doctor. But trust me if it gets that bad, I'll have to go and suck up that 300-400 for the chest x ray and office fee. It's called my responsibility. I guess if I got cancer or some other devestaing disease, I'm screwed, but then again, life holds no guarentees. But for now, I cough alot, am exhausted all the time and have shortness of breath, and that won't kill me. And I have a job to do. But I'm not going to ask the taxapyers to pony up...push comes to shove, I can sell my car....or TV ..or stereo.. or borrow it...and as a last resort, use a credit card.

And how much medical care do you think your car, tv and stereo will get you? Probably no more then a couple of days in a hospital. And what you borrow from friends and family and credit card, you must eventually give back. What do you do when it is time to pay back? If you don't have insurance then sooner or later the tax payer WILL have to pony up for your care one way or another.

And that is the problem we have now. As long as insurance is out of reach of many people, the last resort for most would be losing their meager life savings, house and job just so they will be able to qualify for medicare. By the time they get better, they almost wish they hadn't. they end up penny less, homeless and jobless with no reason to live.

Many, many, MANY years ago I was dragged kicking & screaming through high school & received my diploma by the skin of my teeth. I had absolutely no desire to continue on with college & thus gave up my various high school part time jobs to become “gainfully employed” at the tender age of 18.

I landed an emotionally fulfilling job (seriously) at a children’s photographer’s studio, working away in the dark recesses of their warehouse filing proofs of adorable babies & young kids. While I loved my job & my coworkers there, there was no denying it was a job with no benefits & no future so I bit the bullet & landed a government job with medical & retirement benefits. Now anyone who’s ever worked for the government might appreciate that it’s rarely “emotionally fulfilling” to do so but, at age 20, I felt like I was on top of the world because of the benefits I was now entitled to.

Shortly after landing my government job I then met my hubby & a year later, two weeks after our son was born, my husband was unexpectedly laid off from his job. As far back as I could remember my life’s ambition was to be a wife & mom so, thinking all was well with our world, I had quit my government job in my 8th month of pregnancy, never imagining the fix we would be in only a month later. For that first year, yes, we turned to welfare, primarily for the medical benefits to insure health care for our infant son as well as to put food on our table (with food stamps), & keep a roof over our heads.

While thankful for the lifeline it afforded us in our time of need we hated being dependent on the welfare system. My husband aggressively pursued government employment & he was eventually hired by various government agencies as an intermittent employee in which he was only allowed to work 9 months each year (& on unemployment for those 3 months each year he was laid off). While times were financially extremely difficult it remained a priority of ours that I remain home with our son at least until our son began kindergarten & so we persevered.

I walked to the laundromat, often pushing our son in his baby stroller, & on rainy days (or when there wasn’t any money for the laundromat), I hand washed the (cloth) diapers & hung them on a wood rack over our floor heater to dry while often having to resort to using receiving blankets as diapers in times of emergencies.

As our son grew a little older one of the highlights of our week was being able to walk to the store for a nickel ice cream cone once a week – when we could scrap up a nickel for the treat. Oh yeah, times were tough – but I wouldn’t trade the memories of those special times with our son for all the tea in China.

When our son began kindergarten, because so much time had elapsed since I had left government employment I had to re-test & again be put on very long lists to await those calls for interviews. The same month I did obtain re-employment my husband was also hired on with the government as a full time permanent employee & our hearts sang!

We’re now both long retired & never - ever - took for granted for even one day how fortunate we were to have our jobs & the benefits they provided to our family, & we continue to be thankful to this day. We worked hard for many, many years out of a sincere feeling we had to “earn our keep”, & we were both fortunate enough to be promoted a number of times over those years.

What I hope to convey by sharing my personal history is that life is full of choices & opportunities. Would I have rather worked in a zoo mucking stalls, you bet; would I have liked to have tried my hand at dog grooming; oh yeah. Heck, I would have loved to have spent my entire “career” working away in that warehouse at the photographer’s studio! Had I known the number of years I would be caught up in the work force there are myriad of things I would have liked to have tried my hand at but none of them would have provided me with the secure medical, dental, vision care, & retirement benefits I received through government employment.

Who are any of us to tell our “neighbors” that they must provide for our health care because we choose not to pursue an avenue of doing so for ourselves? Why do families expect “everyone else” to provide the medical care needed by their own elderly parents? I don’t get it? My husband & I now spend a substantial percentage of our retirement income (which amounts to less than 50% of our previous combined salaries), for long term care insurance – so as not to be a burden on not only our (beloved) son & (wonderful) daughter-in-law but also on our “neighbors” – you – should the need arise.

Yes, there should be “safety nets” but it’s my understanding that out of the 47 million people now uninsured in this country, about 17 million of those are illegal aliens (i. e., criminals), & millions more could afford health insurance but choose not to have it. Many eligible low income families have never even signed on to the SCHIP program now offered to provide health insurance for “children” up to age 25! So why this “massive government take over” of everyone’s health care needs, hmmm?

And Schoolbus Gal, don’t even get me started on the illegal aliens demands (or the top of the line health care & sex change surgeries afforded to prisoners), & all those other examples you cited in your posts! BOY am I with you!

Americans are selfish and greedy. Health care should not be a financial issue. It should be a moral issue. LIKE SLAVERY. I am sure that all the plantation owners in the South, lost a ton of money when the Government freed the slaves, but now we see it was the right thing to do. Correct?

Well, not letting 44,000 people per year in our country die with out health care is also the right thing to do.

We went to war for the last 9 years over a terrorist act that only killed 4,400 Americans. That is what dies in a month with out health care. So shouldn't the health care problem be given consideration?

Read 20 of these stories and tell me there should not be health care!

http://www.namesofthedead.com/fulllist.php

Any person that claims to be Pro Life for "Religious Reasons" also better be supporting Universal Health Care. THIS IS A MATTER OF LIFE OR DEATH FOR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE PER YEAR. You can't just claim to be pro life for the unborn, you have to be pro life for the people that are here too. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.

Finally, this isn't Obama care at all. He has been exceedingly disappointing to me. I wish he was trying much less to be "bi-partisan". The country spoke by overwhelmingly voting in Democrats. We wanted change, not blah blah blah negotiations. I really don't care what Olympia Snowe wants or Liberman for that matter.

I hated him, but I will say if Bush had wanted to have health care done he would have just trampled the Constitution, laws, what ever King George wanted, he could manipulate to get things done.

Oh criminy “alicat1”, bringing “slavery” into a health care debate really is sick, typical of a lib, but sick none the less. For the record, my (maternal & paternal) forefathers came to this country from Ireland in the 1850s to escape the potato famine - & I can assure you none of them owned slaves (although a paternal great-grandpa did fight in the Civil War on the side of the North to help abolish slavery). “…but now we see it was the right thing to do. Correct?”!?!?! Ummm, alicat, just FYI, a lot of “white guys” died fighting to abolish slavery even way back then because they, too, knew it was “the right thing to do”.

You are right, though, that Americans – like you – are “selfish & greedy”, with some inexplicable need to dictate to others how to best live their own lives & manage their own finances. Isn’t that much like you being my slave master & me being your slave? Talk about moral issues, I’d say that’s a pretty immoral mindset.

Okay, here’s the deal, you think everyone should be provided with health insurance soooo, what’s stopping you from adopting a family without health insurance & providing it for them? Just think if all 66+ million Obama voters did that, problem solved! Oh, that’s right, maybe not since many of the Obama voters voted him in believing that he would take care of them - on our dime.

If you can’t afford to do that, collect 5 of your lib friends & all chip in to buy another family’s health insurance. If you belong to a church, have the entire congregation adopt all the uninsured families within your congregation & provide all those uninsured families with health care coverage. Then you could dictate to them what medical care they can receive & from whom & for how much & that should satisfy your liberal need to govern every aspect of everyone else’s lives.

One of the posters said that they couldn’t obtain health care insurance by giving up their “toys” when another poster suggested people give up their cell phones, DVDs, satellite/cable TV, high speed Internet, etc. Well, no, maybe not but you could give up those luxuries & provide for your family the basic necessities by banking that money saved each month into a health care account. Gasp! What a concept!

I’m guessing that would amount to a couple of hundred dollars a month (we have 14.4 Kbps rural telephone line Internet access, no cell phones, we don’t “do” DVDs, & [married for over 40 years], we’ve never had a credit card - & I can assure you, we live quite comfortably within our means), which would more than cover occasional doctor’s office visits with the rest continuing to build for more expensive procedures. I’ve always “loved” that idea that it would be silly to give up “this” because it wouldn’t cover “that” so what’s the point, especially when I can get the government (i.e., tax payers) to provide me with “that” & I can keep all "this" too.

As I mentioned, yes, there should be “safety nets”, for those with pre-existing conditions or to cover those who experience job losses or for those who truly make too much to qualify for existing government programs but not enough to afford their own health care coverage. As another poster mentioned, eliminating the restrictions on insurance companies to cross state lines thereby opening up the competition, & implementing tort reform would do wonders as well. Giving a noble name (“Universal Health Care”) to socialized medicine is a silly smoke screen & isn’t the answer.

And to accuse President Bush of possibly abusing his authority to “trample the Constitution” is the most laughable Obama-maniac-line I’ve heard in eons - & trust me, I’ve heard plenty, but yours truly takes the cake. You wouldn’t care to discuss the "Constitution-loving" members of Obama's inner circle by chance, you know, Valerie Jarrett? Van Jones? Kevin Jennings? “Rev.” Jeremiah Wright? Bill Ayers? Bernadette Dorn, Michelle Obama? et al., I suppose? But then, I digress…

"Well, not letting 44,000 people per year in our country die with out health care is also the right thing to do." - alicat1

"alicat1", I respectfully suggest that if you're going to refer people to bogus web sites you use someone other than that fruit-loop Representative Alan Grayson (D-FL) as your source:

"So, how did these political doctors come up with the 44,000 figure? They used data from a health survey conducted between 1988 and 1994. The questionnaires asked a sample of 9,000 participants if they were insured and how they rated their own health. The federal Centers for Disease Control tracked the deaths of people in the sample group through the year 2000. Drs. Himmelstein, Woolhandler, and company then crunched the numbers and attributed deaths to lack of health insurance for all the participants who initially self-reported that they had no insurance and then died for any reason over the 12-year tracking period.

"At no time did the original researchers or the single-payer activists who piggy-backed off their data ever verify whether the supposed casualties of America’s callous health care system had insurance or not. In fact, here is what the report actually says:

“Our study has several limitations,' the authors concede. The survey data they used 'assessed health insurance at a single point in time and did not validate self-reported insurance status. We were unable to measure the effect of gaining or losing coverage after the interview.' Himmelstein et al. simply assumed that point-in-time uninsurance translates into perpetual uninsurance – and that any health calamities that result can and must be blamed on being uninsured.

"Another caveat you won’t see on Rep. Grayson’s memorial to the dubious dead: The single-payer advocate-authors also conceded in their study limitations section that 'earlier population-based surveys that did validate insurance status found that between 7% and 11% of those initially recorded as being uninsured were misclassified. If present, such misclassification might dilute the true effect of uninsurance in our sample.'

"To boil it all down in plain English: The single-payer scientists had no way of assessing whether the survey participants received insurance coverage between the time they answered the questionnaires and the time they died. They had no way of assessing whether the deaths could have been averted with health insurance coverage. A significant portion of those classified as 'uninsured' may not have even been uninsured, based on past studies that actually did verify insurance status. But the Himmelstein team just took the rate of uninsured from the original study (3.3 percent), applied it to census data, and voila: more than 44,000 Americans are dying from lack of insurance.

"Next, the political doctors cooked up scary-specific death tolls for all 50 states (California – 5,302 Texas – 4,675!) Newspapers dutifully cited the fear-mongering factoids. The single-payer lobbying group co-founded by Drs. Himmelstein and Woolhandler took it from there. Last month, the group set up its own memorial on the National Mall for the phantom 44,000 casualties of uninsurance.

"Dr. Himmelstein (who was also the driving force behind another flawed study tying medical debt to personal bankruptcies) eschewed scientific nuance and caveats to take to the airwaves and declare starkly that an American 'dies every 12 minutes' because of lack of insurance. And now, Democrat Rep. Grayson has taken the monumentally dishonest concept online to solicit sob stories and put flesh on the weak bones of these dubious death numbers." - Michelle Malkin (but please note she presents direct quotes from the authors of the study on which your bogus web site is based - LL)

Good stuff, Lucky Lady!

I'm all for personal responsibility, helping (not supporting) the poor and living with the consequences of the decisions you make.

I'm one of the uninsured. I choose to be uninsured at this time in my life. I am healthy. I choose not the spend hundreds of dollars a month to enrich the stockholders of insurance companies. This is a decision that I make. Should I develop a condition tomorrow that requires lots a lots a money, I'm screwed. This is the consequence of my decision.

Some would say that they would like to choose to have health care but cannot afford it. I sympathize. However, health care is not a right granted by the Constitution of these United States of America. I have to disagree with you on this issue Ali, sorry.

I agree that something should be done to bring the cost of health care in line. I have lots of workable ideas on how to do this. Others with microphones have already suggested many of these ideas. However Obama is not listening. I have to wonder what his real agenda is.

Illusions,

If you have thousands of dollars in medical bills that you can't pay then perhaps you can ask for debit forgiveness. I know people that have done this. There are tons of forms to fill out and good amount of invasion of privacy, (proof of income Vs. debit), but many Doctors and hospitals do forgive your bills if you cant pay. My wife is the biller for a Cardiologist and a Neurologist. She forgives thousands of dollars owed by patients that cant pay

It can't hurt to try.

You know, there are a lot of things that are not a right granted by the Constitution of these United States of America that people can't afford to be with out. You don't have to have a police or fire department. You don't have to have running water, sewer and electricity coming in to your home. You don't have to have public schools, parks, roads. You don’t have to have public transportation like buses, trains and subways. I can go on and on. The list of things that are not a "right" and are either paid for by taxes or regulated by the government is endless.

Now imagine for example if the utility companies were not regulated. They could triple their fees just because they can. So what if only half of the population will be able to afford it? They will still make more and it will cost them much less. Why should you pay taxes for public school? What is wrong with privet? Why should roads and streets be built and maintain with your tax money? Why not have only toll roads? Why not pay for every mile you drive? Same thing with public parks and other recreation areas. Why have tax money pay for it? Why not charge an attendance fee for everywhere you go? If you can't afford it or chose not to drive on these roads or go to the park, then that is your problem/choice. Why should you have to pay for a road or a silly park you’ll never use? Why do tax payers have to pay for police/fire/rescue services? People lived with out them for thousands of years. You don't have to have it. So if you want it, why not have privet companies providing those life saving services on a pay as needed basis? Sure it will cost a fortune to make it worth while, and most people won’t be able to afford it, but so what? With out regulations, what will prevent public transportation companies from gouging you? Why not quadruple their fees to reduce costs and maximize profit? It will reduce the load and will make it a much more pleasant experience for those who are willing and able to pay.

It is a free market. Capitalism is the name of the game. Let the market regulates itself. Let anarchy reign. Every man for himself. Who needs the government butting in?

Point is socialization of some parts of our society and government regulations is necessary for a society to function properly. Government has to get involve in controlling and regulating many aspects of our lives in order to ensure a fair and even treatment of all its citizens and prevent companies from gouging and abusing their costumers who are in need of their services. So why not add health care to the list?

So yeah, health insurance is not a right granted by the Constitution of these United States of America, but since it is an important life and death service, or at the very least a quality of life service, like many of the other aforementioned services, government involvement of some sort is a must.


***Edited By: juno on 11/7/2009 7:48:06 AM***
Reason: Sp

You know I wonder when your guys say "its not up to the taxpayers to pay for my medical expenses" do you mean that you dont pay taxes? Because last time I checked my pay-stub I pay the taxes that go to everyones medical care, including my own. And as I believe I already said in this thread I do pay for extra insurance, about $1200 a year, on top of my Alberta Health Care, which until this year was $144.00 every 3 months for my family. But while you guys argue about who should pay I will just take solace in the fact that if is was me with Pneumonia I could go to a Clinic, or Emergency and have it taken care of and not have to worry about a bill, and my Blue Cross will pay for whatever prescription drugs I would then need. My son also get an eye exam every 12 months thanks to AHC, and my husband and I get one every 2 years thanks to Blue Cross. Yep I pay more taxes and yep people who dont work get health care, but it sounds like the only people who your taxes pay for health care right now are those who dont work, ya that sounds like a great system.

Juno,

Your points are well taken, I just do not agree that socialism is necessary to any degree. Most of the social services you mention are provided for by local and State government. Many of these services are necessary in order to provide for "The Common Good" of the populous. These are services that voters have passed by their ballots. I will not debate you point on point.

My position is this. The Federal Government of The United States has and does usurp power and authority from the States. Remember, the Tenth Amendment specifically states: The Constitution's principle of federalism by providing that powers not granted to the national government nor prohibited to the states are reserved to the states or the people.

Perhaps health care reform would work best on the state level. Look at the marvelous job that the Federal Government is doing with Social Security and Medicare. Do you want more of that?

I for one have ZERO confidence in a system that can't even coordinate timely distribution of a Flu vaccine to take over my health care.

Juno,

In re-reading your post, I will respond to one point you made with respect to regulation.

You said in one example that you believe that without Government regulation that power companies would charge anything they wanted and that action would cause hardship to those that could not pay. This is a real life possibility. But here is where Capitalism is the mother of invention. Say that this is true and that there are many that cannot pay confiscatory rates for electricity. This would create a large unserved market. An entrepreneur would see this as an opportunity to serve this market by providing the service that is not available to this segment. How you ask? I chose this example because there is a real life solution to this scenario. Toshiba is working on a small self contained power solution for individual home use. This invention would cut you from the grid. The use of this invention would force power companies to rethink rate hikes that would cause customers to consider the purchase of this power unit over the use of the power company. Self regulating Capitalism. In fact, the only thing that can screw this up is if Government gets involved and regulates any part of this evolution.

I put forth that it is existing government regulations that is in part responsible for the increase in cost of goods and services. Added regulation will not reduce it.

P.S. How much of what you pay now on your power bill is for actual power used? How much of it is this tax or that tax? How much is a fuel charge that may be lower or non existent if abundant fossil fuels were more readily accessible instead of non sustainable "Green Energy" Apply this same argument to health care.

If and when cheaper better ways to generate your own power do became practical and common, and I believe that sooner or later that day will come, then prices would drop. There would not be a need for regulations.
But that day is still far off. Alternate solutions are available, but the costs are too high and their implementations for every day's use are impractical. Maybe fuel cell generators are the answer, maybe solar and wind will do it, or better yet, a miniature cold fusion reactor in your closet would one day be a reality, who knows, but that day is not here yet.

The day may come when people may be able to generate power on their own, get their water from the ground and air and recycle their own waste to fertilize the food they grow on their own. But then again, the day may come when the solution to all mankind’s ailments would come in a tiny little magic pill and there wouldn’t be a need for health care. But until then, we have to relay on the government to keep costs in check. Capitalism certainly has its place, but so does socialism.

Speaking of magic pills, wasn't there an old sixties tune that went something like; "Everything you do and say, will be in the pill you took today"? Sounds damn familiar!