The vet told me demodectic mange is hereditary and I have been looking it up on line but I'm just not finding the answer I'm looking for. We just got a 4 month old puppy 6 weeks ago. Three weeks ago we took him to the vet for bald spots and it is demodectic mange. I know he could pass it down if we used him as a stud but did he definatly get this from his mother? He also has ended up with entropion. My real problem with this is we got his brother originally and he had a severe hip problem so we took him back and got this dog from the same litter. Should this be covered by the health guarantee? It specifically says it doesn't cover entropion but I'm sooo not impressed with the health of their puppies.
I am not an expert of this subject, and I alway thought it was herditary. It, I believe, show up most often in a compramised imune system. One that isn't quite up to par. It is not cotagious, but usually requires life long treatment as flare ups arise. Personally if you want to dog keep it, otherwise I would walk away from those breeders without a pup in hand. you will probably lose your money. You could also consider a formal complaint to the dog worden in your area. good luck
Well, this is caused by a mite, which lives on the skin and is passed from the mother to the puppy. If the puppy has the proper immune system, it will kill the mite and it should never flare into what is more commonly known as red mange. Did the mother have problems before she whelped this litter? If so, she needs to be spayed.
If 2 puppies from the same litter have it, chances are that they all have it. I doubt I would return the puppy to the "breeder" only because I would have that "want to rescue it" feeling. But, that is your decision because it is very likely that it will require lifelong treatments.
What breed is this puppy? Is this a herding breed?
Best of luck!
"A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones who need advice." -Bill Cosby
if the health guarantee specifically says it doesn't cover entropion then you are pretty much screwed returing this puppy but i would defenitly tell everyone i know and post it online about this breeder. it sounds like they are a byb. i mean to buy 2 pups and both have health issues tells me the whole litter does.
I agree, but my concern is 2 different health problems with the same litter....Actually it is hereditary, it is usully a weak immune system that allows the secondary skin infection which the mite causes.
He is an English Bulldog and we spent quite a bit of money on his brother because he looked like our previous bulldog. Then we returned him because of his hips - which were obvious from day 1 but they said they never noticed it - and had to get an exchange for another dog (which of course, looks nothing like our previous dog which is why we actually bought the dog to begin with). Which is how we ended up with this guy and now we are becoming highly irritated that we are having nothing but problems with this guy too. We were just going to deal with it when he had the mange but now the eye problem too. It's just too much in such a short period of time. I tried e-mailing them last night and have received no reply as I'm sure I probably won't. He also has an odd gait like his brother (but not as severe) but the vet told us to wait and see on that.
What is a dog warden???? Can I turn them in somehow? How do I find out who to go to?
I would contact the dog warden and see if anything can be done. If nothing else file a complaint. the other thing is see if there is a puppy lemon law that could entitle you to a refund. You could also threaten the breeder with a public(new or radio) anouncement(it worked for me). Good luck. It is just unreal how bad some people are.
Sorry to hear about all the problems you are having. I have a Bully and he is quite a character.
It sounds like this "breeder" has some major issues. Did they provide any health testing or certifications on the parents? Bullys are prone to multiple health problems, hips being a major one.
If they are not responding to email, try to call them. It is most likely that you will have to try some legal way to obtain a refund, if that is what you want the outcome to be. I would have a difficult time returning a puppy to a home where I felt it wasn't properly cared for, but at the same time I understand the cost of purchasing a puppy is expensive and you want it to be healthy.
Hopefully you will be able to find some recourse here. Please post back and let us know.
"A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones who need advice." -Bill Cosby
He didn't come with any kind of certification on his parents. I did notice his father had only started being used in the last couple of months so maybe this was his first litter. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and maybe they just didn't know. Although, my boyfriend thinks I'm nuts to believe that they didn't know about the first dogs hip problem - it was sooo bad and was obvious the first minute we had him out of the car.
I truely agree - I hate to have him go back but at the same time we have several dogs, 4 of which are bullies. Bullies have problems and can become quite expensive to raise so I hate to have one that I know is always going to have these health issues, especially when we have only had him for 6 weeks. All of our bullies where clearance puppies until this one and we paid 3 times as much for him as any of our others and none of our others have had ANY problems. That's why it's so disheartening.
If I don't get a reply tomorrow I guess I will call although I am not good with any kind of confrontation and I will probably back down :-( I'm such a sissy.
What is a dog warden though? How do I find this person?
The guarantee says it covers against fatal and life altering congenital disease, which adversely affects the health of the animal. Does not cover what is considered normal, such as entropion, cherry eye, skin allergies. . . .etc.
Would the mange be considered a congenital disease?
Demodex is not a hereditary disease. It has been suggested that the propensity for Demodex in puppies is due to to a T cell immunological deficiency. This also has not been medically proven. In fact many puppies with localized Demodicosis have normal T cell saturation.
Many Bulldog breeds have a known propensity to develop localized Demodicosis. In many instances it is self limiting and self correcting. There is no need to panic. It is also known as "Puppy Mange"
Here is my thinking. Even properly inoculated puppies do not have immune system maturity and as a result could and do fall prey to many diseases that may not even produce symptoms in a mature dog. Demodex included. Here is an article from the CAPC Veterinary Reference Council that offers an in-depth look at Demodex:
Demodex (mange mite) Species
Canine Demodex canis Demodex injai Demodex sp.
Feline Demodex cati Demodex gatoi Demodex sp. Overview of Life Cycle
* Most Demodex spp. are considered normal mammalian fauna. * Neonates are thought to typically acquire mites from the dam via direct skin-to-skin contact, but most individual animals do not develop clinical disease. * All stages of the life cycle (eggs, larvae, nymphs, adults) reside within the lumen of hair follicles and within sebaceous gland ducts; some species are more commonly found in the stratum corneum. * Development from egg to adult takes approximately 20 to 35 days and is completed entirely on the host.
(Go to top) Stages (see images on right)
* Six-legged larvae hatch from fusiform-shaped eggs and undergo several molts to become eight-legged nymphs and ultimately adults. * Adults are eight-legged, slender, and elongated mites; their appearance is often described as cigar-shaped. * In the canine Demodex species, the length of adult mites ranges from 180 to 210 µm for D. canis, 330 to 370 µm for D. injai, and 90 to 140 µm for the unnamed species. * In the feline Demodex species, the length of adult mites ranges from 181 to 219 µm for D. cati and 81 to 115 µm for Demodex gatoi.
(Go to top) Disease
* Although most Demodex spp. are considered normal mammalian fauna, overgrowth of mites may be associated with development of patchy hair loss or mild to severe dermatitis in dogs and (less commonly) in cats. * In cases of demodicosis caused by the unnamed canine Demodex sp. or D. gatoi in cats, disease is thought to be caused by the infestation itself rather than an overgrowth of mites.
* Canine demodicosis may be localized or generalized and both forms may present in either juvenile or adult dogs. * Pruritus does not occur in uncomplicated infestations; however, pruritus can be seen with secondary bacterial pyoderma. * In dogs, localized demodicosis—characterized by a mild, nonpruritic, patchy alopecia on the head or limbs—usually develops in puppies less than 6 months of age. Most cases of juvenile-onset localized demodicosis resolve spontaneously without treatment. * Generalized demodicosis in dogs is a moderate to severe disease that in most cases is attributable to an overgrowth of mites believed to occur because of an underlying systemic disease or immune defect. With the unnamed canine Demodex sp., however, the infestation itself is thought to cause disease. * Physical examination findings include alopecia (which may involve several large to coalescing areas of affected skin), erythema, and often secondary superficial or deep pyoderma. Lymph nodes may be enlarged, and when pyoderma is present, pruritus may develop.
* Cats with localized demodicosis develop alopecia and crusts as well as some scaling around the face, neck, and eyelids, with varying degree of hyperpigmentation. * Generalized demodicosis due to overgrowth of D. cati is usually associated with underlying systemic disease (e.g., diabetes, Cushing's disease, neoplasia, feline immunodeficiency virus). * Cats infested with D. gatoi are pruritic and may excessively lick or groom affected areas. In cats with D. gatoi, dermatitis is not associated with underlying disease.
(Go to top) Prevalence
* Canine demodicosis (demodectic mange) due to D. canis is a common skin disease in the dog; disease due to D. injai or other Demodex sp. in dogs appears to be very rare. * Feline demodicosis due to D. cati is rare, and feline demodicosis due to D. gatoi is even less common, although cases are reported from the southeastern United States.
(Go to top) Host Associations and Transmission Between Hosts
* Demodex spp. are host-adapted mites of mammals. Mites have not been shown to cross-infest among dogs, cats, and humans. * Neonates are thought to acquire mites from their dam via direct skin-to-skin contact during nursing. * Transmission of mites may also occur during direct contact between older animals, but demodectic mange is not contagious as most animals that develop generalized demodicosis are thought to have an underlying immune defect (see Disease). * Demodex gatoi is a superficial species reported from cats and is thought to be contagious among cats.
(Go to top) Site of Infestation
* Demodex canis and D. cati infest hair follicles and sebaceous glands. * Mites may occasionally be reported from other tissues (e.g., lymph node, intestinal wall, kidney, thyroid gland) following dissemination via blood or lymphatic drainage. * Early studies of nursing neonatal puppies have found D. canis mites initially within the skin of the face, and then over time mites are transferred throughout the skin of the entire body. Mites are not found in the skin of stillborn puppies or puppies born by Caesarian that are not allowed to nurse. * Localized demodicosis in dogs most commonly develops on the head or limbs; the lesions of generalized canine demodicosis may develop anywhere on the body. * Demodex gatoi infestation in cats is most frequently reported from the groin, ventral chest, and sometimes limbs.
(Go to top) Pathogenesis
* The immunopathogenesis of demodicosis is not fully understood, and in most cases an underlying cause is not identified. Although a responsible condition is not always identified, many cases of generalized demodicosis appear to be the direct result of underlying diseases that compromise the immune system. Excessive cortisone, chemotherapy, and underlying cancer or diabetes have all been associated with the development of generalized demodicosis in individual animals. Accordingly, dogs and cats with generalized demodicosis should be carefully evaluated for potential underlying disease states. * No specific deficits in innate or humoral immunity have been identified in dogs with generalized demodicosis. However, some studies suggest that cellular immunity may be compromised in some individuals that go on to develop generalized demodicosis.
(Go to top) Diagnosis
* Demodicosis due to D. canis, D. injai, and D. cati is diagnosed by microscopic examination of deep skin scrapes from affected areas of alopecia (Link to Images). * Alternatively, in uncooperative dogs or sensitive areas in which skin scrape is difficult (e.g., feet, interdigital region), hairs may be plucked from an affected area and placed in mineral oil on a slide for microscopic examination. * Because the unnamed canine Demodex sp. and D. gatoi in cats reside within the stratum corneum, superficial skin scraping or tape impression offers a better method for detecting these mites (Link to Images). Because the pruritus associated with D. gatoi infestations leads to removal of the mites by grooming, they often are difficult to find. * In rare cases of “occult demodicosis,” i.e., no mites are observed with either the skin-scraping or hair-pluck techniques, a skin biopsy may demonstrate Demodex mites. The mites (or mite fragments) can be seen within the lumen of the hair follicles or (rarely) within the sebaceous glands/ducts, depending on the type of mite. This technique may be necessary in Demodex cases involving the feet and in the Chinese Shar Pei.
(Go to top) Treatment
* Most cases of localized demodicosis resolve spontaneously without treatment. * If treatment is desired, a rotenone-based insecticide ointment (Goodwinol) has been approved. Although the ointment is miticidal, localized irritation may occur.
* Generalized demodicosis may require extended, aggressive therapy to resolve disease. * Comprehensive treatment should include use of an effective miticide, evaluation for any underlying disorders and appropriate treatment when found, antibiotic therapy when pyoderma is present, and spaying of female dogs to prevent recurrence during subsequent heat cycles. * Amitraz dip (Mitaban®) at 250 ppm every 2 weeks is the only approved miticidal treatment for generalized demodicosis in the United States. o Hair should be clipped throughout treatment; dogs should be allowed to air-dry or should be dried with a blow dryer after each application. o Use of a benzoyl peroxide shampoo prior to the application of amitraz dip is recommended; dogs should not be shampooed between applications. o Some practitioners recommend weekly dips or a more concentrated formulation (e.g., 500 ppm) in refractory cases or to clear dogs more rapidly. o Side effects may occur and are detailed on the product label. o Key safety recommendations when using amitraz dip include application of the product in a well-ventilated area and use of protective gloves and a mask during application. o Asthmatics and diabetics should exercise particular caution when handling dogs that have been treated with amitraz. * Other miticidal treatments not labeled in the United States include high-dose oral ivermectin, oral milbemycin oxime, and topical moxidectin. o Ivermectin injectable may be given orally at escalating doses using 100 µg/kg increments. Begin with 100 µg/kg for 3 days followed by 200 µg/kg for 3 days followed by 300 µg/kg. Some practitioners recommend remaining at the 300-µg/kg dose whereas others recommend continuing to increase the dose every 3 days to 600 µg/kg. It may take up to 33 weeks to resolve lesions and eliminate mites. Continue treatment for 1 to 2 months after two consecutive negative skin scrapings.Milbemycin oxime (Interceptor®) has also been used daily at doses ranging from 0.5 to 2 mg/kg. Doses are escalated gradually, building to a final dose of 1.5 to 2.0 mg/kg (Holm, 2003). Continue treatment for 1 to 2 months after two consecutive negative skin scrapings; the treatment course ranges from 60 to 300 days (Mueller, 2004). o Some dogs, particularly herding breeds such as Collies, Shetland Sheepdogs, Border Collies, Australian Shepherds, and Old English Sheepdogs, may have mutations in their MDR1 genes and thus have increased risk of avermectin/milbemycin toxicity. The escalating dose regimen should be discontinued if any of the following signs are observed: mydriasis, mild salivation, significant changes in behavior, ataxia, or seizure. Practitioners can determine whether a dog has the MDR1 mutation by sending a cheek scraping to the Washington State University at Pullman College of Veterinary Medicine Veterinary Clinical Pharmacology Lab for analysis (http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/test.aspx). o Moxidectin/imidacloprid topical (Advantage Multi®) is marketed in Europe under the trade name Advocate® and carries a label claim in Europe for treatment of D. canis infestation (Heine et al, 2005).
* No products are labeled for demodicosis in cats. * Lime sulfur dips have been reported effective. Dips should be performed weekly for 6 weeks with 3.1% solution (4 ounces per gallon of water). * Ivermectin has been used once weekly at 0.3 mg/kg orally for four consecutive weeks. Side effects may occur. * Amitraz has been used in cats at a 0.0125 to 0.025% solution every 5 to 7 days for 4 to 6 weeks. Side effects may occur.
(Go to top) Control and Prevention
* Metaflumizone/amitraz (ProMeris® for dogs) is a monthly product approved for the control of Demodex spp. that can cause demodectic mange. * For intact female dogs that develop generalized demodicosis, spaying is recommended because they may experience relapse of disease in subsequent heat cycles. * The development of demodecosis was long believed to have a genetic predisposition, and as a result, some veterinarians discourage breeding affected animals. However, the hereditary nature of demodecosis has not been clearly demonstrated.
(Go to top) Public Health Considerations
* Demodex mites are host-adapted; there is no zoonotic potential in either canine or feline demodicosis.
(Go to top) References
Heine J, Krieger K, Dumont P, Hellmann K. Evaluation of the efficacy and safety of imidacloprid 10% plus moxdectin 2.5% spot-on in the treatment of generalized demodicosis in dogs: results of a European field study. Parasitol Res Suppl 1:S89-96, 2005. Holm BR. Efficacy of milbemycin oxime in the treatment of canine generalized demodicosis: a retrospective study of 99 dogs (1995–2000). Vet Dermatol 14:189-95, 2003. Mueller RS. Treatment protocols for demodicosis: an evidence-based review. Vet Dermatol 15:75-89, 2004.
The thing that calls the breeder into question in my mind is that the purchaser does not appear to have been informed about some of the things they may expect to have occur with a Bulldog puppy. They are walking genetic defects and without the list they simply would not be Bulldogs and certainly would not be the image of the dog that many know and love. In many cases it isn’t whether a problem exists with a Bulldog it is whether it crosses the line into an actual problem or a do not breed condition or beyond what may probably be expected. Your vet and your breeder are really important because if they are not extremely familiar or knowledgeable about the breed specifically they can panic you over something that may be expected by others that know the breed a little better or with the breeding itself produce even more unhealthy pups of course. If some of these things do not occur then you can do a happy dance about it.I’m not saying a lot of them aren’t a complete and utter mess and far more so than they should be especially since so many people decided to jump on the ‘money train’ but there is really no such thing as a ‘perfect’ Bulldog. You get the mug and the build and the issues that may not be normal in another breed or you would have a completely different dog.
The first pup likely does have a big problem that is beyond normal (and they also believed so apparently as they took it back and gave replacement). Here we have a case of whether or not is abnormal for the breed. It is present at birth in most cases. Sometimes it is completely within normal ranges but the people involved are not aware of it and now it becomes a huge problem. This is often a qualification in a Bulldog puppy contract in some way shape or form. There are only 443 evaluations of Bulldogs for hips (OFA), they are ranked number one and more than 70% are abnormal. It does not mean a breeder does not evaluate but they aren’t always sent in as they come back abnormal which is normal for a Bulldog. It becomes a question of whether or not it is crippling as seems to have happened with your first pup.
With this second puppy both things are usually qualified in the contract as a part of the ‘normal’ things that are not covered. Entropian in Bulldogs is not a Do not Breed condition. It is common, considered to be better to expect to occur along with cherry eye and a bunch of the other things. Comes along with the look. It is preferable not to breed a dog that has had entropian but isn’t a requirement and does not mean some of their pups won’t have it. It would be taken into consideration with any other ‘problems’ the potential sire or dam may have and what things are important to the breeder. More Bulldogs break out with a case of localized demodex in the first year (usually between 4 and 9 months) than don’t so it’s also better to expect. If it’s generalized you may want to look for an underlying immune disorder that may actually be covered by the contract. Demodex itself is usually in the contract. If it is of the type/severity that is to be better expected with a Bulldog than you likely won’t have to worry about it beyond this outbreak or after the first year unless possibly in an extremely stressful situation for the dog. Ivomec is commonly used with Bully’s and the newer Interceptor is also working really well. Stenotic nares, hypoplastic trachea, some hemivertibrae are a couple of other things that may be there with a potential to cross the line into an actual problem. Many breeders will not breed a Bully that has had any sort of palate repair (but some will) but it is another thing potential buyers should be prepared for in a pup. Umbilical hernias are common though very rarely ’hereditary’. Urinary tract issues. And the list goes on. You shouldn't have them all but should expect some.
I’m sorry that things didn’t work out the way you had hoped and expected and for all your frustration. Most of this isn’t even directed towards you but I read things like this over and over and over. I’m not saying that this is a good breeder or that you don’t have problems but really wish that people were more aware in general (big popularity explosion which escalates poor breeding practices but also many buyers with no idea of what they might expect) so here it is. It is in most contracts. I think a decent breeder usually has you leaving with an understanding that some of these things may occur and one that is suspect to me has it in their contract and doesn’t inform until it occurs and says simply ‘read your contract’ or didn’t inform simply because they didn’t know (shiver) and aren’t there to advise and offer help throughout the pups life. You did mention that you had had one previously so maybe they somehow overlooked the fact that you didn’t know and assumed you did. This isn’t a defense of them but entropian and demodex (and then some)are generally a standard part of the exclusions in a Bulldog puppy contract covered under the common issues not covered (or similar) part of the contract.
Ethical breeders tend to advise their customers of all of the possible health issues known to occur with the breed they promote. It is then up to the customer to decide if they choose to accept the risk.
For example, I do not warranty skin, coat or any minor issues. I do warranty proven genetic defects that would prevent show or are life threatening or compromise quality of life.
A thorough well written contract is the best tool for breeder and buyer to know what to expect in any given situation.
Thanks for all the advice everyone. FINALLY got a response from the breeder. Pretty sure they thought if they ignored us we would just go away. They are willing to trade us dogs for another of theirs but in no way would they give us a refund. I hope this dog is good and healthy and not like the previous two. Apparently the two dogs we had were the ONLY ones that have hip problems or were ill in any way. We'll see - puppy #3 is hopefully healthier.
I am a new breeder of French bulldogs... I have a buyer that purchased a puppy 4 months ago and just called me asking for the dog exchange due to hereditary condition as she was told " demodectic mange" I have been researching about this condition and everybody has different answers ... Is it hereditary or not? Do I have to fallow the lemon law due to this condition? I don't want to make the buyer upset but I am also afraid they just want another puppy... Please help me.