I have a male ckc registered american bulldog and female nkc registered AB and im gonna breed them. will the puppies be nkc? which one is more worth it and how do i know if i havea johnson or a scot american bulldog is there a database on them or something i need to know how much they are worth thanks
I hope you live in Canada and its Canadian kennel club and not continental kennel club?
The continental kennel club is a fake registry and should not be bred. You never know whats in the lines. They will register anything.
I am not positive on what health test a bull dog needs.
For a puppy to have a decent price it needs to have proven parents(not proven they can breed-that always cracks me up) in show or work. They need to be as close to correct as possible conformationally and they need to have a great temperament.
Very rarely will a person own two dogs that compliment each other well enough to be bred. It is NOT a good sign to see parents on premises in a sale add.
If the pups will be unregistered and the parents do not show I do not see the point of breeding. They will not be great homes looking for pups like that and it is not breeding to better the breed. You might be lucky but I would price it like any rescue at 100ish$ with a spay neuter contract. Puppies are pricey when there are health tests and work into showing the parents etc.
where did you get the dogs from? The breeder would be the best to tell you about the lines but I am guessing they were not the best breeders?
If I have any beliefs about immortality, it is that certain dogs I have known will go to heaven, and very, very few persons -James Thurber
well i got the ckc (male) from georgia from a guy named ***** and he had a bunch of dogs and it looked like he had been doin it for a while. the female nkc i got from georgia. the boy is really stocky (like most males)and more wrinkly with shorter nose and huge head and is beautiful the sire is a smiths johnny ringo. The female is very small with longer nose and smaller head. he looks more like a american bulldog than she does. I was told that when i go to breed them i switch him to nkc too. is that true?
***Edited By: lpn169 on 12/5/2009 3:54:05 AM*** Reason: Removed names, not permitted
Blocky is a very basic term used in evaluating dogs but conformation goes much deeper than that. What is the shoulder angle on both the dogs? 50 degree's, 45 degree's, 60 degree's, what should it be for an AB? What is the length proportions of the topline? is it loin or is it back? Do the angles on the front and rear assemblies match? Many bully breeds have a roach back, do you know if an AB should have a level, strait but angled, or roach topline? How much depth of chest? Does the prosternum extend to the ninth rib? What about the neck, does it have sufficient length to allow a sufficient stride while gaiting? Do the knee's go face forward or are they out at the knee's? Does the front leg drop plum and position under the withers of the dog or does it fall under the neck? What shape should an AB's foot be? What is the prescribed eye color? What kind of bite should an AB have, level or siccors? What is the forearm proportions to the rest of the front assembly?
I could ask lots and lots more questions but this is just something goes through a breeders mind who knows how to evaluate their dogs beyond "stocky" or "refind" or simply on color like some do.
I have to admit I know nothing about nkc? But a reputable registry will not give you breeding papers to a dog registered ckc.
It sounds like you got took with this breeder. It happens to a lot of people when they get into dogs so don't feel bad about it. A person having many dogs is usually a sign of a bad breeder and just cuz they have done it for years does not make them reputable.
CKC will let you send in a pic or vets report to say a dog is a certain breed. I have fostered dobe mixes that look pure dobe. Someone could take them in and get "papers" and breed them as a purebred. I knew someone in college who did this with a boston mix they found at the pound who didn't even look that much like a boston!
Here is some info on what to look for in a good breeder
"-How knowledgeable is the breeder about this particular breed? Are they familiar with its historical origins? Can they educate you about the breed's disadvantages - especially genetic predisposition to health problems and characteristics like shedding, slobber, dominance, inter-dog aggression, etc. that may make owning the breed a challenge? Beware of anyone who sounds like a salesman and tells you that their breed has no disadvantages! Good breeders will play devil's advocate.
--Are the breeder's dogs screened for genetic health defects like hip dysplasia, eye disorders, hypothyroidism, Von Willebrand's disease, epilepsy, cardiac conditions, and anything else that is common in the breed? Can they provide you with proof, e.g., CERF and OFA certification and other relevant veterinary documentation? A good breeder will welcome your concern and be glad to offer the requested information - beware of anyone who is defensive! An excellent breeder will candidly discuss the health of their line of dogs, including the problems that have cropped up. Even good breeders can produce unhealthy dogs on occasion. The difference is that the good breeder is on a mission to find and remove those genetic influences from their breeding lines. The irresponsible breeder approaches health in a haphazard manner.
--Does the breeder have any old dogs on the premises? How long have their own dogs lived, and from what have they died? Beware of the person who sells off their adult dogs that are retired from showing and breeding. You want a breeder who loves the breed, not someone who loves to breed.
--How many breeds is this person breeding? Ideally, someone will have a special interest in only one breed (perhaps two). A Jack-of-all-Breeds truly is a master of none. How many litters does the breeder have in any given year? A good breeder may breed one or two litters, or may not breed at all for a year or more between litters. More is never better. Anyone who is producing a large number of dogs is probably doing it at the expense of quality.
--Are the breeder's dogs kennel dogs or house pets? While it is sanitary to keep large numbers of dogs outside in a kennel, you want a breeder who keeps their dogs in the house with the family. Breeders who keep their dogs in kennels may have temperament defects (like excessive dominance) of which they are not even aware. Puppies should be raised inside an active home to begin socializing them to a household environment.
--Will the breeder provide you with the names of their veterinarian and several past purchasers to serve as references? If given a choice, request pet references. Certainly a professional trainer will be able to handle a tough puppy, but what about a family with three kids and a cat? If the latter just loves the temperament of their dog, that speaks volumes. Ask the breeder about the homes that haven't worked out. There are bound to be some. Is the breeder honest that they made a poor placement, sympathetic to someone who underwent a life change that necessitated returning a dog, blunt that they produced a problem dog... or is the breeder bitter and accusatory about the person who bought the dog? Beware of the narrow-minded breeder who places blame on everyone but themselves.
--What kind of guarantees does the breeder offer? Most will offer a replacement puppy or refund of purchase price if your puppy manifests a serious genetic defect. Any responsible breeder will want to keep in touch with you and be informed if your dog develops health problems. The better ones may ask you to have your pet OFA and/or CERF screened when it is old enough (as your dog reflects on their breeding stock). Truly caring breeders will insist that you return your puppy to them if you are unable to keep it for any reason during its entire life.
--Does the breeder expect to sell you a puppy with strings attached? Concerned, responsible breeders will insist that you neuter your pet puppy as soon as it is old enough. They may have you sign a contract to this effect, or they may sell the puppy with limited registration (which means that if you do breed it, you cannot register the offspring). Remarkable breeders will pediatrically neuter puppies before sending them off to their new homes. This is a very good sign in a breeder, so much so that I would be suspicious of any breeder who does not insist on neutering.
--On the other hand, beware of any breeder who tries to sucker you into a breeding contract. They will treat you like you're stupid by flattering you and trying to con you into agreeing to keep your pet intact and breeding one or more litters, giving the breeder back one or more puppies from each litter. This is the biggest scam around. You get stuck with the expense and inconvenience (not to mention health risks) of keeping an intact animal and then providing the breeder with free puppies. If a breeder tries to talk you into this kind of pyramid scheme, find another breeder.
--At what age does the breeder send puppies to their new homes? Avoid any breeder who wants to send home a puppy younger than seven weeks. Many good breeders will release puppies at 8 weeks, but as long as the puppy is being actively socialized, it is arguably better to wait until 10 or 12 weeks.
--What does the breeder do to socialize their puppies? Ask them for specifics. Good breeders will have lots of toys and activities to which to expose their puppies. Mild stress is excellent for making puppies resilient later in life. A breeder who allows their puppies to experience different sounds, surfaces, etc. and meet different people is trying hard. A breeder who keeps their puppies in some sort of ultra-sanitary, almost sterile vacuum is doing the puppies a great disservice. Puppies raised in a kennel should be avoided.
--A good breeder will be very interested in who you are and somewhat choosy about whether you are able to provide an adequate home for one of their cherished pups. A breeder who wants to see your home, your kids, your spouse, your other pets, proof of your fencing, or talk to your veterinarian is simply trying to make sure that you will take good care of their pup. Do not resent this. Good breeders want to keep in touch with you after you've purchased a puppy and will be there for you with support and advice later on. Avoid breeders who take credit card orders over the internet and ship puppies to anyone who wants them. NO responsible breeder will sell a puppy to a pet store or other broker for resale.
--A good breeder will participate in breed rescue efforts for the breed they love. This is important. Anyone who scoffs at breed rescue or is not personally involved in it in any way is someone to be avoided. Often the best place to begin your search for a good breeder is to ask breed rescue volunteers for their recommendations.
--Good breeders think ahead and make reservations in advance for the puppies they will produce. You may have to wait for a puppy, but that's not a bad thing. Beware of someone who first creates puppies and then worries about how to disperse them.
--What does the breeder do for a living? Dog breeding should be an avocation. Avoid anyone who makes their living through breeding dogs! The corners they cut financially may be at your expense.
--Are the premises clean and orderly? Are the breeder’s dogs healthy in appearance? It can be a messy proposition to raise a litter of puppies, but puppies should not be wallowing in waste, covered with fleas, or otherwise appear neglected. Keep in mind that many longhaired bitches will shed their coats heavily during this time, so if the puppies’ mother appears a little ratty it is not necessarily inappropriate or unusual.
--Do you like the temperaments of the puppies' parents? Remember, temperament is genetic! Avoid puppies from bitches that demonstrate any aggression or shyness. Specifically inquire about possessiveness (food and object guarding), inter-dog aggression, defensiveness about being handled, etc. Accept no excuses for undesirable behavior. Don't be afraid to ask the breeder to demonstrate the *****'s good temperament to you.
--Has the breeder or will the breeder allow you to temperament test the litter? While puppy-testing is not especially predictive of adult temperament, it’s an attempt to gauge a puppy’s personality so that it can be best matched with a new owner. Ask the breeder's permission before doing anything to a puppy. No potential buyer has the right to do anything to a puppy which a breeder perceives as potentially harmful.
--Does your breeder respect veterinarians, trainers, groomers, breeders, and other peer professionals in the dog world? Beware of breeders who are paranoid or hostile towards other professionals. One cannot operate competently in a vacuum, and in general, good breeders are socially well-networked. They are liked, like others, and respect competent professionals in their field. A good breeder should make the effort the know other good breeders (especially of their own breed). It is important for a breeder to strive to improve their knowledge and understanding of their breed and submit to peer critique, even if it is not necessarily formalized (as in the show ring).
I would fix what you have now, keep them as pets. Work on finding a good breeder you can start working with. Then pick a male or female and really work on getting them shown or prove in some way so its a dog people will want a puppy from.
If I have any beliefs about immortality, it is that certain dogs I have known will go to heaven, and very, very few persons -James Thurber
yes well these are good points that yall are giving me but i got thses dogs for free so i dont think they were tryin to make money and i dont have his phone number. i was just interested in them and have been sop i decided to breed them. i actually found out that my male is a johnson bully and she is a standard scott so that explains why she looks that way. i quess ive always seen the bully type. so your sayin that the akc requires you to take your dog to let them examine the dog to see if they can register it instead of just a picture
ok now i see the first one i got was from a breeder who had alot of dogs and i guess he had too many studs and got rid of one and thats how i got duke(the ckc). i dont know if you can really judge by that or not. i did see alot of kennels but there were also alot running around too. i think people like the breed and then just end up breeding them because they like the breed and because they want to breed$ but you never know.
People talk about CKC as a bad Reg.. In some cases it may be. There are also people who piggy back AKC dogs too. I seen some CKC boxers and American Bulldogs that will blow some AKC dogs out of the water. It all based on pedigree and owners period. I personally feel that AKC as kennel club is more of a business than quality nice dogs. You have people that feel they are only worthy to breed and make you have limited reg while they make all there money off of you. I personally have an AKC,CKC, APRI boxers. I will always breed either APRI or CKC before AKC. A name doesn't make your dog better our worse its the owners intergity and the dogs pedgriee. I would reg. them CKC if you ask me... A lot of the people that say AKC AKC won't even let you breed the dog you just purchased...
Corsomom; Cane Corsos are beautiful by the way..Your right some shouldn't be breed but who are you "you meaning the owner" to be the judge of that. Then some say well I sell him for $500 on limited and $1000 if you would like to breed... lol... Its the same dog... I just feel that the sometimes it not what you know but who you know in AKC kennels..Don't get me wrong I like AKC standards and all I just feel its up to the buyer if they would like to keep as a pet or to breed and share the love they have for there dog with other people...
I am one of "those" who have different prices for pet and show/breeding. I look at it the other way although it really doesn't make a difference. It's not that I ask more for full registration, I just ask less for limited. It is glass half empty or glass half full approach. I just give pet only people a break because other wise I would be asking $1000 across the board because I could probably get it pet only or breeding rights. I work very hard attaining and proving my dogs. It is only fair for me to be compensating for my time and money in doing so while others benefit their breedings from my hard work. I don't mind people benefiting from it, but I do charge a fee for it. When you buy high dollar items there is usually some different priced packages that come with perks. The more perks, the higher the price. My pet purchasing people get the standard perks because essentially the dog is coming from the same bloodines and stock the others are coming from but they aren't wanting to build a breeding program on it. It's a single solitary purchase.
Hopefully somebody getting one from me on full rights is going to benefit beyond that one puppy, the idea is they are going to improve the next generation of their own dogs resulting in multiple generations for that person built on a foundation of hard work by my self and others before and after. I had to pay a good heap for my dogs, pay a heap in health testing, a heap in showing, a load of time involoved in constant maintainence grooming and conditioning of dogs I am showing, a lot of time loading the car full equipment and spending all weekend in civic centers, fair grounds and community buildings getting various expert opinions on my dogs. I am leaving Saturday morning at 2:30 AM to make it to a show so I only have to pay 1 hotel night instead of 2 to help keep costs down. That is just a part of why I have to ask more for people who want the benefit of having titled and pointed parents to their puppies they get from me.
I look at full vs. limited registration (and the two different costs) from the perspective of the spouse of a professional photographer.
The photo is the same, but what it costs depends on how you want to use it. If it's a family portrait that will sit on your mantle and that's all -- that's one price. If you want the right to use that photo in a national ad campaign -- well that's a different price altogether. As soon as you let someone reproduce something based on your product, you've lost a little bit of control. You have to be very careful about how you "sell the rights."
It's the same for a dog. A pet sold with limited registration is the same as that portrait on the mantle. A pet sold with full registration is a photograph that can copied/manipulated/used everywhere - sometimes in ways you wouldn't expect or approve. It's only fair that the price be higher.
NDY, I frequently use that to explain the difference as well, I didn't this time but looks like you did it for me. I call that the copyright analogy.
I also forgot to address the part about how they seem to think "it's who you know, not what you know". In away, your right, it is who you know. Most of the people I have attained my dogs from, I built a relationship with long before I got a dog from them. I got to know them and they got to know me and what I was about. When it came to get a dog from them that I liked, they were 100% comfortable with my goals and motives. We don't like to sell to people we havn't got to know a little bit about first. Breeder networking and building friendly professional relationships is a major key in growing as a breeder in my book. I don't know what I would do without my network. It's sort of the long way around but so very much worth the time and effort. I have learned so much from my network.
I don't think everyone that has full and limited prices are doing it to protect the breed.. I'm sorry. They do that to keep you and whoever likes your dog to have to keep coming to them if they would like one for themseleves. Which means they keep their money rolling in. Also about the pix analogy it doesn't work for me.. It's the same pix right? I payed for it right? So what I do with plays a deal on how much it cost. A person may still pay the extra money and still do what they want with it. So how is that protecting the breed. If the money is right then do what you want? I just don't agree AKC name has taken them very far and I just think its overrated as far as what some breeders are doing with the name. I feel the reason why CKC and APRI has taken flight the way that it has is because people buying a limited pup at a cheaper price and think they just want a pet or don't quite understand what limited is want their now grown dog to breed so someone else can feel their same joy and they have no choice but to go to CKC or APRI.I beleive if you want to breed you should do it for generations. You see alot of breeders that say I ahve AKC dog but the pups are reg through CKC or APRI. Does that make the pups of lesser value now? I don't think so.. But thats neither here are there AKC is great if you use for the right reasons and not because of the name. But I love you all, just a friendly debate.
I used to think alot the same way. That was until I stepped into the deep end of the pool and became alot more involved in dogs. Your right again, it is about money, The money and time spent being involved. I don't think any breeder is bad for wanting or at least attempting to be compensated for both. To maybe drive home NDY's explanation, have you ever had professional portraits done? Are you "allowed" to make reproductions of them? No, not without asking the photographer first and probably giving them more money. One reproduction won't cost you alot and maybe nothing at all but if you want to make 1000's more for your own fianancial gain, the photographer is going to charge you alot more to release his copyright on the picture.
If you don't ask the photographer and you do it without permission, he will hunt you down and sue your pants off. It really isn't about AKC, APRI, CKC. It's about being involved and paying your due's and getting recognized for your hardwork. When I sell a litter I do aim for some compensation but quite honestly if I never recouped a single penny and had a had a stash of lottery money hidden somewhere I would still raise and show my dogs because it is a hobby I enjoy regardless of what I do or don't recoup. But since I don't have that secret stash of money, I must try to break even and on a really nice litter, I might come out two cents ahead. I have many people who are willing and happy to pay full rights for my puppies without hesitation and I the same with the people I buy puppies from. I don't think twice about it. They earned it and I will benefit greatly from it. One of the sweethearts I am showing this weekend I paid very dearly for on full registration but she is GORGEOUS!!!! CH sired, 52 CH's in the pedigree with many of them ROM, ROMX producers, and top winning dogs in breed history. You do not buy this kind of quality for a measly $500. If I sound like I'm bragging, I AM, the people who I got her from worked HARD for those bragging rights and I feel mighty darn lucky to have her.
I'm not going to argue about this anymore. Some people who have never been on the "other side" of a copyright (or intellectual property) equation just don't get it. It's if they are unable to hear themselves say, "I highly value this item, but I think it should be free."
So what your saying is thats it's about you and what you believe in and the hardwork you put in? I get that.. Understandable but again that has nothing to do with limited and Full.. Once you sale that item or dog whatever you feel is best on limted reg for this price and full for this price its still iffy...But if you sale as puppy only well then to me your not looking for that extra buck off of breeding you would just like a pet only dog and is firm.But to put a different price for the same dog to breed is terrible. It's the same dog so you can't tell me that you care for the breed or you want to keep that name... It all comes back to please buy from me again and tell all you know where you got the item or dog.. So in essance the rich get richer.. You can have the same outcome with full reg.. If your doing what your suppose to do then the buyer will come back anyway.. Just because you have hobbie that you love doesn't mean you should get extra money and control rights over the item I mean dog.. A hobbie is something you love to do regardless. Breeding is for the quality dogs with great tempermant to go to great families... You dont fix cars for a hobbie then sale them then say hey "by the way no racing "IF you want another car you have to come to me to get one".... If it's what you say it is and fixed it up right with high quality and intergity they will come back...