People on this site don't understand a thing of what I'm trying to say, you judge judge judge without asking a thing then on top of that insult for no good reason. You should ASK wait on an answer and then judge. If people whom are answering this are breeders, I hope I don't end up like you.
***Edited By: hannahsminipins on 9/14/2010 12:57:48 PM*** Reason: Re-do
I have read books about planes, does that make me a pilot?
Ok so prove your not just breeding to line your pockets.
Do you do health testing?
Do any of your dogs have AKC or UKC conformation or working titles?
Heck have any of your dogs even so much as stepped foot in a ring?
If the answer to ANY of these is no then you are a crap breeder, breeding for no reason other than to line your pocket.
Reputable breeders do health testing and showing, breeding only the best, no good breeder would drop their dogs off at a shelter, so your new dogs are coming from other crap breeders, IMO. Just because the person helping you with your litter bred dogs doesnt mean that they were reputable. There is NO reason to breed "for wonderful pets" reputable breeders have wonderful pets in every litter, pets that come from properly bred dogs.
So IMO if you are breeding to line your pockets you are no better than a puppy mill, living off the suffering of your dogs.
***Edited By: Ruffian on 9/14/2010 7:04:04 AM*** Reason: add
Hannah, first of all before you posted and provided a link, you had to agree to the Terms of Service for the forum. The TOS clearly state there is no advertising and no website promotion permitted on the forum.
Secondly, you are on a site that has folks on both sides of the breeding issues, breeding vs spay/neutering. These issues are very close to people's hearts, so the opinions are very strong.
I am of the firm opinion that we can all learn as we progress and if you are determined to breed, you need to do it the "right" way. Find a reputable breeder who has experience in the proper health testing (breed specific and in general), conformation (having dogs that are proven to be the best of the breed) and ethics of breeding to mentor you.
I would not consider breeding the bitches handed off to you by another breeder without wondering WHY she just gave away two of her breeding females. Are they healthy and genetically sound? Temperaments good? Conformation proper? Just doesn't make sense that a reputable breeder would hand off 2 of her "breeding stock".
IMHO everyone has to start somewhere, but finding that there are steps to take to become a good, reputable, ethical breeder is the path to follow.
As a breeder, you have to remember that it is your responsibility to accept these pups back into your home, no matter their age. If you are breeding unsound pups, you need to be prepared to have heartbroken clients, pups suffering from health issues and a home overrun with returned dogs with health and/or temperament issues. So it's best for all to do it the "right" way.
Sometimes it's best to take the time to do in-depth research, especially when dealing with living things.
"Some days you're the dog; some days you're the hydrant". author unknown
If you did "research", you wouldn't be breeding dogs that are given to you, or dogs that someone else no longer wanted. Do you even know what diseases/health problems minpins are prone to? Have you ever been to any shows, talked to any "real" breeders? Ones who actually show their dogs and do health testing? (And no-health testing does NOT mean you took your dog to the vet for a rabies shot) How do you know your dogs are "quality" and "meet standards" if they've never even been shown?
Do you know what Legg-Calves Perthes disease is? Subluxating patellas? Progressive retinal atrophy? If not, you have no business breeding.
If you REALLY loved the breed, and you're NOT going to show and do it the right way-get into rescue. No, you can't sell them and make money off them, but you're not in it for the money, right?
A lot of times when someone mentions they breed, or they want to breed, their dog, presumptions are made about the person and negative posts follow rather quickly. That is pretty standard on general dog forums. Having only 1 breeding pair does not qualify you as a puppymill. Unfortunately that term is used frequently, most times incorrectly, to describe a wide range of breeding/breeder scenarios.
I could care less if you show your dogs. Having seen and heard enough of what show people do and their supposed ethics, just because a dog comes from someone who shows their dogs, doesn't mean anything. though if you are going to advertise that your dogs meet breed standard, and the pups that they produce can be shown, there really is only one way to verify that and it is through showing your dogs. If people really want a dog they can enter the show ring with, they are going to research breeders who do show, and win. If people are just looking for a pet, they will have a different set of guidelines. Health would be at the top of anyone's list regardless of their reasons for getting a dog. having had time to peruse your website, it seems you do not test your dogs for any health related problems. I am not talking about having your vet check them over and seeing that they are healthy dogs. I am referring to researching the common genetic issues Min Pins have, ALL breeds have something, and testing the breeding dogs for it to make sure they do not pass something on to the puppies they produce. That is called being an ethical breeder. But it is only 1 thing that an ethical breeder does. There are many more. Each breeds parent club has a website which defines their particular code of ethics. Most codes of ethics do not vary widely between breeds because as Pyrmom stated, there is a right and wrong way to do things.
Do you belong to your breeds dog club? It probably wouldn't be a bad idea for you to become a member if you aren't already. You don't have to show your dogs in order to become a member but you will get a lot of useful information from them. Information that may help you better your breeding practices, and your dog's and their puppies future health.
You will come across a certain amoutn of negativity in your quest for information because anyone can put 2 dogs together and produce puppies. If you show people that you are interested in doing things the right way, that you really care about the breed and want to correct any mistakes you have already made, I am sure you will find a lot of people who would be more than willing to guide you in the correct direction. Good luck to you !
Actually, Scout-I think she was called a BYB...not a puppy mill. But it seems to be a family affair. She's a breeder, her daughter is a breeder (per her post above), her sister is a breeder (per her website)...
So, put them all together, and maybe they DO qualify as a puppy mill!
I'm waiting to see what she says about the health testing, etc. I can tell you that I don't show and have no intentions of showing. My priority when I got my dogs was HEALTH. Any breeder that didn't have OFA tests done on all their dogs was immediately disqualified. As you mentioned-just because a dog is "cute" doesn't mean it's healthy or should be bred.
It's a shame more people don't get into rescue, instead of seeing $$ signs and breeding any dog they can get their hands on. Her AKC papers prove nothing.
I read basicly everything you had to say. 1. In total between my sister and my daughter and myself, we only have about 8 dogs. No more then 10. That really isn't a puppymill or backyard breeder. As for health testing, I do it, but no longer advertise it. People mostly want pets, so when they hear they were health tested before breeding they get confused and I have to explain it over and over when it was as simple could be on my website. So I took it down and if a person wants to buy a breeding/show dog, then I'll tell them the parents are tested and I doubt I'll have to explain thing.
If you are a proper breeder, your health testing is of primary importance for both pet and show quality dogs. You seldom have more than 1 show quality (possibly breeding stock) in a litter. People who are well educated about the breed are going to want to know what health testing you've done, and if they don't it's your responsibility as a breeder to educate them on the possible health defects your breed carries, and what you've done to avert those problems. I might also add that with the best of testing you can have an awful disater...I've had one. I think you really need to change your attitude slightly.....you should be breeding 1. to better the breed, 2. For health, and 3. for temperment. If you don't have those qualities in place, your dogs should not be bred.
Catlover I'm not sure now. I swore I read that she was called a puppymiller in a private message she received but she has now edited her original post so I cannot verify it.
Hannah the amount of dogs you, or anyone, have is not what classifies you, or anyone, as a puupymill or backyard breeder. WEll maybe a puupymill if you had closer to 100's of dogs. It is how they are bred, and the care, testing, etc. that go into the breeding dogs, that classifies someone as a backyard or puppymill breeder. Someone could have only 2 dogs, 1 male and 1 female, do no genetic screenings on them, and allow them to breed whenever the mood strikes and they would still be a backyard breeder. I know of lots of show breeders that have more dogs than you, lots more, that keep them in outdoor kennels, send them off to other people to be trained and titled in different sporting events,and they are considered the elite in their breed because they show, test and have numerous titles on their dogs. Sure it may look great, but they didn't do a damn thing themselves with their own dogs. Why? Probably because they have way too many to attend to by themselves but yet many would consider them over another breeder just because of the titles their dogs have.
Personally, I would love to see all breeding stopped until at least 75% of the animals sitting in shelters dying all across the country have a home. I know it sounds extreme, and I am fairly certain there are not any people on here that would feel that way. It is why I could never become a breeder. I absolutely see a connection between dogs dying in shelters because of puppies being born.
Anyway Hannah, even though this thread may have turned you off from any further discussions on breeding on this forum, it would be nice if you could just weed through what you found offensive and take in what you thought may have been helpful. i think the majority of people are just trying to help you do what you are doing the right way. The way that will benefit not only the puppies your dogs produce live long and healthy lives, but your own dogs lives as well.
Just as an aside, can you really make money from breeding Min Pins? I would think not much if any since what do they typically have per litter 1-3 pups? If I wanted to make a living off of breeding dogs I would pick a breed that can produce much more than that lol.
I just want to make sure that Catlover knows that canine involvment is commonly a family affair and doesn't make anyone a puppymill on family involvment alone. My mom is very involved in dogs and is reputable in her breed, I my self grew up in the dog world so it was very natural for me to carry on but selected my own breed and am now developing a reputation of my own and if I had a sister, she'd probably be involved in dogs too and hopefully on the same reputable level. When I have children, it wouldn't surprise me if they grow up to also be involved. I won't force it but I would really like to get my future children involved in Jr. Handling and they will likely grow up knowing all sorts of stuff about reputable canine husbandry practices.
Go to a dog show sometime, you'll find there are a lot of families involved in dogs together and many times multiple generations.
Not saying Hanah is or isn't reputable but her family being involved in dogs is the last thing I'd look at to determine reputation.
As said above my post, usually breeding is within families. Just because we have about 10 dogs all together, that doesn't make us a puppymill or a back yard breeder. If I was doing this for the money and I'm not, I'd have about 8 females of my own, and 3 or 4 males, along with I'd have around 5 or 6 litters a year. I don't breed for money, and I never will. I think that compared to othersites, most people on this site are hard headed and think whatever they say is right, but your forgetting when YOU started you, you didn't know much either. Even the best of breeders who have been around for 15 or 20 years started somewhere not knowing things. So whatever, you can say, think, and believe what you want. But really the only one that matters is the buyer.
Again, I think you are misunderstanding the tag of 'backyard breeder'. This particular title that people use in NOT used according to the number of dogs you have, own or produce. It is related to the 'way' in which you raise and produce puppies.
I find your excuse that you test but dont advertise it becaise folks get confused very poor myself. People who are searching for a dog will do the research, usuually, and know what these tests are. Even if you have folks asking you what the test is for, what it grade/rating means....that should be a normal thing for a breeder to be willing to provide that information.
And I also disagree with 'breeding for pets is different'. NO it is NOT. Breeding be it for the show ring, pet homes, etc...the first and foremost concern is HEALTH. The breed pool does not need unhealthy dogs producing more unhealthy dogs.
Have you ever shown any of your dogs? I am only guessing by your replies thus far that you have not....which is okay, dont get me wrong. BUT do not advertise that you have show puppies if you have never shown or have any titled parents in your pedigrees (which I did not see your site, so I dont know the answers, just advising)
If you sell someone a puppy as a show puppy, then that person attempts to show it only to find it is of poor quality as far as show, or has any disqualifying issues such as marking, size, etc...you can be sued. Be careful what you promise or put in writing anywhere. Even on your site, if you brag about show puppies, one of the 'jilted' buyers can use what is printed on your site to sue you. It happens folks are crazy these days and sue happy.
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain.
I do think that taking the health testing stuff off the website because people were confused is a little odd. If anything I get puppy buyers coming to me because I do post that information. Even just "pet people", well researched pet people who have a hard time finding breeders who do health testing. People who don't know about it before are enlightened when it is explained to them and put me at the top of their list over other breeders because I've taken time to help educate them about what it all means. They walk away a little more dog savvy than before. People like that kind of stuff.
A lot of people try to get the "rare" color or the "rare" look but want to know whats really rare? Good examples of the breed from health tested and breed standard proven bloodlines. You can master color genetics until it's no longer rare and the fad has died out but healthy well bred puppies never go out of style and for the most part have remained quite rare.
I also find that excuse odd. I personally have no problems explaining all the testing I do and why. It never gets boring, and it is educating the buyer. I talk to many people, and never get tired of talking to anyone about my breed. I don't always have pups, 1 or 2 litters ayear(my girls are getting older so maybe 3next year lol). Many people I talk to don't come back to purchase, but that is ok by me. I just hope that they take the knowledge away from our conversation.
I alway put up the results from the testing I do. Even the not so great one lol. Personally 1/2 of the OP excuses make no sense to me.
"As for health testing, I do it, but no longer advertise it. People mostly want pets, so when they hear they were health tested before breeding they get confused and I have to explain it over and over"
I think what Hannah meant to say is that SHE gets confused when people talk about health testing. Ever since I asked her what tests she has done, she hasn't posted a thing. Guess that pretty much answers the question, doesn't it?