I have never posted here before, but, have come on as a guest to read the advice and some of the interesting topics. My 9 year old son brought a history question to me the other night about Hitler and the ultimate human race. It made me stop and think. I am not a breeder, I do have a couple of dogs that I love dearly, even though they do NOT have championship bloodlines. I have read many posts on here about bloodlines. I wonder, did we choose our spouses for their bloodlines?? How well did we check their genetic backgrounds before breeding and pro-creating? How many of our spouses and children have a very mixed heritage and do not fall with in the "national averages" for height,IQ, weight, race, haircolor, eyecolor? How many of our spouses and children have genetic defects such as diabetes, asthma, learning disorders, etc.? The ones that do, should they not be allowed to mate? It kind of makes you stop and think, are the people who think that only championship bloodlines should be bred, or that a dog should be bred only for a specific purpose are acting as Hitlers of the dog world? Now, before I get screamed at over this, I would like to say that, NO, I do NOT beleive that unhealthy dogs should ever be bred. But, doesn't it strike anyone else as strange that some people seem to put higher standards on pets than on the people they intend to spend the rest of their lives with, not to mention create the next generation of people that will run this country?
How many people are willing to spend mega bucks at a vet or behaviorist trying to "fix" an undesirable trait? Of couse, we would do it for our children, but how far do you go to save a pet. Is it fair to a dog that has these problems. He will most likely live a miserable life. Granted a small percentage of those who really love our pets would spend a great deal of money,but there would still be a limit. Lets face it, for the good of the dog, it's best to be as healthy as possible and that starts with breeding. And by the way, in humans, there are genetic tests to check for inheritable diseases and some opt to abort rather than bring a handicapped child into the world. Not that I necessarily agree with that, but if I was faced with that situation, I'm not sure what I would do.
You make some very good points! Dogs/Pets are not free thinking beings.....They do things by instinct, routine or training. It is humans who breed them. It is also humans who careless about the dog to have it spayed or neutered, that contribute to the over population of unwanted pet's.
I was aware when I posted that some people would choose to ignore the part of my post that said I do NOT beleive in breeding an unhealthy dog. If you know that a dog has the capability of having pups that would have to lead a miserable life, then that dog should definately not be bred. That intelligence and decision making is what sets apart from the animal world. My post was directed more towards the people that would have you not breed a dog because it is not within so called "breed standards". Someone, somewhere, at some point in time decided to dock ears and tails. Someone, somewhere, at some point in time decided that a particular breed could only be so tall, or a certain color, yet by docking and cross breeding in earlier times, the animal that was originally created was changed. Some beleive the change was for the better, some don't. The point is, the original animal that God created has been changed many many times throughout history, including the cross cultural breedings of people. Yet, some will go to great lengths to keep a breed "pure" . Even the "Official Publication of the American Kennel Club" dicusses the changes over history of many breeds that they now are trying to protect as "pure". Many of the toy breeds mention being "bred down to size" and this smaller size is now the standard by which some judge a dog. I know that there are people out there that "judge a book by it's cover" alone, but, as is usually the case with books, people, and dogs, it's what's inside the cover that should ultimately count, not some unknown persons "standards". +
I do agree that there is overpopulation of the dog world and the people world, and yes, PEOPLE need to make the decision to breed their dogs responsibly, just as they should make the decision to have children responsibly, but, I do not think that the decision to breed should be made on whether the dog has a champonship bloodline or not. A healthy background is what should be looked at.
I'm not saying there is a "con" to owning a dog with a champonship bloodline. My comments are for the ones that beleive that unless it is from a champonship line, it shouldn't be bred. I don't want to go into my beleifs on showing dogs personally. I do own one dog that came from a show background. Her mother and father both had titles galore, but, I bought her instead of her sisters because I fell in love with her outgoing, so happy to see you, personality. Her sister was actually a deeper color, and extremely beautiful, but, lacked the spirit and personality I saw in the one I purchased. I wasn't interested in breeding her, or showing her. I love her particular breed and went looking for a dog of that breed, champion bloodllines or not that had the zest for life I remembered from my pet as a child.
I think most people think that because a dog was shown and won championships that it was an extremely healthy dog, now almost everyone knows that a good show dog does not nessacerily(sp?) mean that it is extremely healthy. I agree that health is more important, I breed Pomeranians and health comes before everything else, however, I also have a dog who is going to be neutered next Wednesday and not be used as a breeder to anyone because he has a over shot jaw, he weighs ten pounds, and is just not a good candidate for breeding even though he is the picture of health. So I think that a little bit of "show qualityness" needs to be considered when breeding without champion lines, and EVERYONE needs to consider health first.
I see your point, poochlover. I would certainly be a fan of a healthy companion dog and I could care less about the breed standard, as I would neither breed nor show. However, the breed standard is there for a reason as besides things like hip dysplasia, shape of the head, eyes, body size, leg length also do contribute to the health of the dog in some breeds. I have always rescued, but if I were going to spend my hard earned money on a purebreed and pay over a grand, I would want the best bred dog I could afford, with a guarantee.
Thought provoking! The animal world limits breeding by spay/neutering but you still have the mutts (as great as they are) and the ill which are not ideal for breeding the next offspring. In the human world, limiting reproduction has become a legal battle. The severely handicapped believe that a baby is a wonderful thing to have but do not understand the repercussions. These woman are not eligible for sterilization usually and continue to breed children with hereditary ailments. In china the breeding of humans is limited to one child per family. I wonder how this match, being of such importance, is handled.. In another part of the world that is also heavily populated, the man is outnumbered almost 10 to 1. The men are not able to marry until late 30's when he has had a chance to prove what type of man and father he will be. The ‘champions’ are breed with the others remaining sterile. I saw parts of this show and wish I were able to see it in its entirety. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
"I know that there are people out there that "judge a book by it's cover" alone, but, as is usually the case with books, people, and dogs, it's what's inside the cover that should ultimately count, not some unknown persons "standards". I agree' There is not one club out there that can tell me that their dog breeds are better then any'other! I dont believe in any kennel clubs. I think most' breed there dogs because to "them" they are the best of the breed. But on the same hand those same people will register the pups with whatever club, so they say they can show pedigree' and ask more money! Its B/S to me! I dont knock anyone who likes to show within there club if thats what you like to do.....But really what makes anyone think their' dogs are better then the next?
Some of the problem lies in what a breeder calls a champion bloodline. What constitutes it? 1 champion in 5 generations. Both parents are champions? Not all champions are free from genetic defects. Some champions are not health tested. Most have been. But I guarantee that their is more health testing done by breeders involved in competition (ie: show, agility, hunt, herding etc.) than with breeders that don't participate. That is not to say there aren't breeders who do not compete that don't health test. For a competition such as conformation, there has to be some type of guideline (standard) which you are breeding towards. That's why it's called conformation. How well does a specific dog conform to the standard. Ask anyone who's involved in conformation if there's a perfect dog. The answer is no. I also agree that no matter what the conformation or ability of a dog may be, if it is known to be unhealthy or defective and the problem is inheritable, they should not be bred. Just my opinion!
Thank you so much for all your though provoking, intelligent answers to my post. Rereading my original post I see that the question I posed about genetics was very broad and misleading. The genetics I was refering to were breeding for height, weight, hair color etc. I do beleive that some genetic responsiblity needs to be taken. In the case of life destroying things such as hip dysplasia, heart murmurs etc. responsible genetic breeding is of the utmost importance. I personally have 3 children. I am of "average" height, and manage (barely) to stay within the "average" weight catagory as is posted in my Dr.'s office. My spouse on the other hand is shorter than "average" and above "average" in the weight catagory. My oldest son is the picture of the "average" American teen ager. Dark hair, dark eyes, 6 feet tall, 165 lbs. He has lettered in football, basketball, baseball, track, and weigh lifting. His IQ is in the high average range. Sounds like the perfect kid right??? He is severly dyslexic, and has asthma that is controlled with medication. My youngest son on the other hand, is below "average" by anyones standard of a 9 year old boy in both height and weight, but, his IQ has tested as very gifted. He is also blonde with hazel eyes. LOL It is their differences that make them who they are. I don't love the athlete any more or less than the book worm. ( By the way, my daughter falls right in the middle of "average" everything and is also the middle child and is in the middle of puberty.) She has dark hair and hazel eyes. They are all wonderful people, if you don't judge them only by what you see on the outside, but, talk to them, and see their personalities.
I see this a totally different and related. I can't even see a comparison between selective breeding of dogs and people having children. If people selectivly bred themselves we would be much better off, but thats never going to happen and it probably shouldn't happen. Lets see..... Humans Have free will Are intellegent beings Have emotions Have attachemts and relationships Fall in love Get married because they love eachother and get along great, and of course have children together. Which they raise and love. Who may or may not have health problems. And most people have some sort of "defect' whether its a major health problem or something simple. Thats because we don't selectivly breed. Dogs Somewhat free will, but are controlled, raised and trained by their owners-humans. Who dictate what they will and won't do and can modify and condition them for behaviors. They are not stupid by any means but lack ability to reason. Understand relationships, breeding, emotions, love, pro-creating. They are bred by humans who choose to breed them selecting best to best to keep and preserve a breed. Stick with the breed type, produce healthy offspring who exhibit the look, temperament, personality of the breed. Then there are those who breed on their own, strays or they get loose, or because irresponsible owners choose not to spay their dogs. They don't breed because they love eachother, find the other attractive, want to create a family. They breed out of drive and instinct. They have no control over this. So its up to humans being the intellegent being and owner to either confine/spay their animals OR be responsible breeders. Nope, I don't see it as a playing Hitler, I see it as being a responsible breeder. In showing, health tested, choosing the best breeding. No CH bloodline doesn't mean healthy or even a great temperament. A lot of "ch bloodline" dogs don't even have a Ch bloodline and its a line bybs use to sell pups and make people think they are getting something great. But a true CH bloodline from a responsible breeder, also has great health and temperament. They aren't just bred because they are a CH, which would be ridiculous. Showing and proving the dogs are just part of the whole thing breeders do, not the one and only part.
Yes, a Ch. bloodline doesn't mean you are getting a good dog, that comes with it's on perspective of right & wrong. It just means that it has a Ch. bloodline. That's about it. ---Allie the Chihuahua http://www.dogster.com/?41063 ---Mönica the Kitty http://www.catster.com/?57596
the human element is and will always be the problem. animals in the wild do not go around breeding whenever the drive hits them. they are selective with whom they mate, when they mate, and how often. natural conditions also factor in. the availability of food is the majot factor. and also animals in the wild will not allow their offspring to live if it has a genetic problem. these offspring will often be killed by the mother within 24 hours. how the mom knows that the baby has a problem is way beyond my understanding.the instinct to procreate is for survival of the species. allowing weak animals to survive will not pro long their species time here on earth. even our modern day dogs retain some of these instincts. but who messes it up ? us. when we see a mother dog ignoring her pup what do we do? we interfere and bottle feed it and raise it ourselves. our modern dogs have lost the instinct to only mate for survival. i believe that hsa been bred out of them over the thousands of years it took us to domesticate them. so now it is up to us to breed only genetically sound and healthy dogs. though a champion next to their name does not always indicate a sound mind and body, it probably is the closest thing we have to judging what has been instinctively bred out.